The Truelife* Mode PBEM DAR - RockinHarry German POV

[A Canadian Cat]

32 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I also assign target arcs and sometimes pre-split the squads.  I then cross load them so they don’t recombine.  This also prevents the squads from redistributing ammo among teams. Example: A platoon has three squads that in turn have three teams. Unload squads & split into teams. B teams get back in same vehicles. A teams move one vehicle to right.  C teams move one vehicle to the left.

Interesting technique. I can see a downside here: all the LMGs end up in one place for example. Do you find that causes issues once you get to your destination?

[MOS:96B2P]

33 minutes ago, IanL said:

I can see a downside here: all the LMGs end up in one place for example. Do you find that causes issues once you get to your destination?

The vehicles have the same TOE as far as passengers.  They are just from different squads. 

Example: vehicle one still has one LMG team but it is from 2nd squad instead of 1st squad. 

With limited seats it might be difficult to put the same (big) teams in one vehicle.  Scout teams could go all in one but then the remaining bigger teams would not all fit in the remaining vehicles.  One B team would end up on foot.  I guess you could also intentionally do it this way for special circumstances but I've not tried it.

I just ammo up and cross load so when it is time to dismount and take cover they are already split into teams (so cover is easier to find and there is no stopping to split in a more dangerous area).  

Edited March 6, 2019 by MOS:96B2P

[A Canadian Cat]

Ah I see I misread your post as all the B teams in one track all the A team in another... Got it now.

[Bulletpoint]

47 minutes ago, IanL said:

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

We can get used to many things. It's just one of those times where I wish I could push a button to say "Alright, load up and move out".

LOL I don't think we should add a "read my mind" feature to the game - cause well computers cannot do that yet.

Not asking for mind reading, I'm asking for a button that takes the ammo from halftracks and gives it to squads.

This feature is already in the game behind the scenes - if you buy armoured infantry and choose "dismounted", you won't get the halftracks in game, but the extra ammo will be distributed.

[JoMac]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

No, IMO, not gamey.  It is part of my SOP during the setup phase.  Since in the setup phase you can freely move troops in and out of vehicles as many times as necessary.   I wish that being loaded down with ammo was more noticeable in the troops movement & fitness. 

I also assign target arcs and sometimes pre-split the squads.  I then cross load them so they don’t recombine.  This also prevents the squads from redistributing ammo among teams. Example: A platoon has three squads that in turn have three teams. Unload squads & split into teams. B teams get back in same vehicles. A teams move one vehicle to right.  C teams move one vehicle to the left.  Then I don't have to dismount an entire vehicle if I just want one team for some task.  Maybe a scout team to check out the farm house up ahead or whatever.  

Ok, I'm afraid of being the 'Heathen' and the Minority here among the Forumites...

But, I think troops should already be in what ammo layout they were allocated to at beginning of Scenario/QB (Full, Adequate, Low, etc), and not be giving Ammo at beginning or mid-game (except the ability to Ammo Sharing among Squads, etc if within couple action-spots)...Now, in between Scenario's of a Campaign, then I'm All-In for receiving additional Ammo.

However, thou, and in saying the above...I can go for something like having troops receive ammo (in middle of game) back to it's Original Load out (not anymore) they started at from beginning of game. 

So, it's not a question of being 'Gamey' (since the game allows for it), it's just a question of it being in the game at all...But, Players wanted this in Upgrade v3.0 (I believe it was introduced), because they wanted unlimited ammo, and not run out, and here we are :-(

Edited March 6, 2019 by JoMc67

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Yeah. I agree with @Bulletpoint that the consequences of adding 1000 or 2000 rounds to a squad are not as severe as they probably should be.

it would be some 4-5 of these extra (a 1000 rounds). Don´t have fill weight at hand ATM, but distributed equally among the squad I would not imagine "fast" move mode still beeing possible. At least not for long.

My squads got ~500 of these extra, most likely to be carried in 2 cans, but that may vary. Maybe some guys have belts hung on their necks and the like. Also of interest is that the extra loads entirely beeing of the AP (SmK) type. Maybe 10-20% of these would be of this type normally.

Edited March 6, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I also assign target arcs and sometimes pre-split the squads.  I then cross load them so they don’t recombine.  This also prevents the squads from redistributing ammo among teams. Example: A platoon has three squads that in turn have three teams. Unload squads & split into teams. B teams get back in same vehicles. A teams move one vehicle to right.  C teams move one vehicle to the left.  Then I don't have to dismount an entire vehicle if I just want one team for some task.  Maybe a scout team to check out the farm house up ahead or whatever.  

+1

I also figured about this recently. Did not use it in current game, due to the hard to get coordinated mess I already have. 

Edit: IIRC I also got timed dismounts working, i.e getting a single team (halfsquad) dismount at x seconds and the other one after pausing 20-30 seconds additionally or so. This to avoid the mess caused when a full squad dismounts simultaneously, attempt deploying in the AS befeore moving off at last. Quite a vulnerable state, when caught by the enemy.

Edited March 6, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

45 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Not asking for mind reading, I'm asking for a button that takes the ammo from halftracks and gives it to squads.

This feature is already in the game behind the scenes - if you buy armoured infantry and choose "dismounted", you won't get the halftracks in game, but the extra ammo will be distributed.

Interesting! Didn´t notice that one yet. But it´s also my first time playing Panzergrenadiers.

[MOS:96B2P]

36 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

Ok, I'm afraid of being the 'Heathen' and the Minority here among the Forumites...

But, I think troops should already be in what ammo layout they were allocated to at beginning of Scenario/QB (Full, Adequate, Low, etc), and not be giving Ammo at beginning or mid-game

So, it's not a question of being 'Gamey' (since the game allows for it), it's just a question of it being in the game at all...

You HEATHEN!!! 

In a scenario it is up to the scenario designer to setup and arrange things (within the ability of the editor) to play out as intended.  In a QB I guess it would be agreed upon what / how much to purchase and then followed up with house rules during a QB PBEM.

It can be an interesting task during a scenario to have supply trucks that need to reach a black on ammo platoon or something like that.  Or have crates of ammo show up as reinforcements on a drop zone or HLZ.  I think the system generally works pretty good.  Between scenario design, pre-battle agreements for (PBEMs) and house rules the details can be worked out.  

I would like to see more noticeable consequences for overloading troops and the ability to return ammo.  Also more flexibility with the Acquire command.  So the first team to Acquire  has a choice to take 100 rounds, if the player wants, instead of being forced to take a large number like a 1000 rounds.   

[MarkEzra]

I'm going to follow this...sounds really interesting and fun.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

I am glad you like them. I have to admit that I like seeing them used by other people in screen shots. Thanks!

Beeing the ones also used in all my period resource materials, I find this quite comfortable having these in the game as well. 

[RockinHarry]

2 minutes ago, MarkEzra said:

I'm going to follow this...sounds really interesting and fun.

I guess the map is yours, @MarkEzra ?

[MarkEzra]

9 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Beeing the ones also used in all my period resource materials, I find this quite comfortable having these in the game as well. 

FYI  This is one of Jon's terrific Holland maps   A living History.

 

[RockinHarry]

5 minutes ago, MarkEzra said:

FYI  This is one of Jon's terrific Holland maps   A living History.

 

Ah ok, Jon then. I found this to be a very well made map, with interesting to play on possibilities! 

[Pete Wenman]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

Ah ok, Jon then. I found this to be a very well made map, with interesting to play on possibilities

 

I think it might be one of mine. It looks an awful lot like a bit of the Oosterbeek master map, but Jon and I did overlap in this part of the world and not surprisingly the maps looked very similar. 

P

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Not asking for mind reading, I'm asking for a button that takes the ammo from halftracks and gives it to squads.

This feature is already in the game behind the scenes - if you buy armoured infantry and choose "dismounted", you won't get the halftracks in game, but the extra ammo will be distributed.

I'm going to have to call you on that - sorry nope. The below pics are from CMBN 4.x in Quick battle where I picked a company of armoured infantry for both US and Germans with a platoon mounted and a platoon dismounted. There was no automatic ammo distribution done for the dismounted squads. There was a few less rounds and sometimes more grenades sometimes less.

German Panzer Grenadiers (Battalion 44 formation) - dismounted

Same formation mounted - less that 100 rounds less

Available ammo not automatically distributed to the infantry

 

US armoured infantry (Battalion 44) - dismounted

US Armoured Infantry - mounted also less than 100 rounds difference

Available ammo not automatically distributed to the infantry

[Bulletpoint]

52 minutes ago, IanL said:

I'm going to have to call you on that - sorry nope. The below pics are from CMBN 4.x in Quick battle where I picked a company of armoured infantry for both US and Germans with a platoon mounted and a platoon dismounted. There was no automatic ammo distribution done for the dismounted squads. There was a few less rounds and sometimes more grenades sometimes less.

Thanks for proving me wrong. My claim that ammo from dismounted infantry is automatically distributed is something I picked up on this forum years ago. Can't find the exact thread now, and it's possible I misremembered things.

I think it came from some thread discussing the difference betwen buying the armoured infantry as dismounted and manually just deleting the halftracks. It seemed that there was some point difference for the infantry depending on what you did.

Someone suggested it was because deleting the halftracks also meant deleting the extra ammo they carried, whereas choosing dismounted would distribute that ammo.

 

But it seems it was the Panzerfausts that get distributed, not the rifle ammo:

On 12/15/2017 at 12:27 PM, Drifter Man said:

2. I've been studying the makeup of German infantry units and noticed that armored Panzergrenadiers come in two varieties: mounted (8-man squad) and dismounted (9-man). In the scenario editor or in quick battle setup, the player can choose the variant he wants. Halftracks can be subsequently deleted from the mounted variant. Now here's the problem: One squad costs 47 points as dismounted and only 38 as mounted

On 12/16/2017 at 8:02 AM, Vanir Ausf B said:

Look closer. Dismounted squads tend to carry more panzerfausts. In a mounted platoon the fausts are split between halftracks and squads.

 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Bulletpoint

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Pete Wenman said:

 

I think it might be one of mine. It looks an awful lot like a bit of the Oosterbeek master map, but Jon and I did overlap in this part of the world and not surprisingly the maps looked very similar. 

P

could well be, since it has an Oosterbeek label in the town.

[RockinHarry]

42 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Thanks for proving me wrong. My claim that ammo from dismounted infantry is automatically distributed is something I picked up on this forum years ago. Can't find the exact thread now, and it's possible I misremembered things.

maybe confusion with the games difficulty modes, where Warrior and below distributes all ammo dumps ammo broadly on the force automatically. But I don´t know either. Basically a vehicle with ammo stocks and made dismounted, is an ammo dump like the others me thinks.

[MarkEzra]

opp's yes... it's Pete's   Pardon me... Both guys are at the top of my most favorite map designers list.   Beautifully crafted and historically accurate.

[RockinHarry]

Turn 2

Selected a different color and naming scheme and hope I can stick with it:

RED = German Positions (larger compositions or single units/vehicles if of particular interest) & Movements (planned and current).
PALE BLUE OBJECTIVE AREAS (OA) = German to be occupied objective areas (self selected, not to be confused with a games preset objective zone, which is not in use here)
Numbering of OA replaced by letters A, B, C, D and following if objectives change, or new ones added.
YELLOW = Present or possible Lines of Fire

BLUE = generally all enemy positions, movements and else.
WHITE = All text
QUESTION MARKS = generally all things yet unclear and also mentioned in text.

Added a different compass and "UP" is always towards the enemy, in this case = West. I find bottom-up views for main friendly movements more convenient and easier to follow.

Hope this all works out ok, until I can settle with just the right amount of info and simplified enough to not beeing confusing. 

 

Turn 2 Situation:

1. Coy 1st turn movements weren´t quite going according to plan. Point 1. Squad / 1. Plt is now near Sextons house in (A) all alone. Remainders of 1. Plt (mounted) are stretched apart, yet on the move and following on that paved road to (A) with some delay. 4. Plt (4x HMG) reached its objectives in (B) more or less in time, as is 2. Plt (mounted) at objectives in (B) as planned. Stummel section, 3. Plt (unmounted) and Coy HQ still on the move towards (B). That single 251 with 2 IC and scout team is at intended place near the woods. No enemy contacts and sightings yet.

2. Coy Panzergrenadiers and support still on the move towards (C) and (D) as planned. No enemy contacts and sightings.

Plan and Orders Turn 2:

1. Coy

Lead 1. Squad / 1. Plt on 251 dismounts near Sextons house and occupies it. 2. Squad /1. Plt somewhat delayed, but with road now clear, follows and dismounts near Sextons house as well. 3. Squad and Plt leader (251/17) are to follow and use the raised dirt road branching from the main one to reach area to the left of 1. and 2. Squad at (A), then dismount.

2. Plt. instead to directly follow 1. Plt on the paved road, remains on halt and Plt leader 251/17 and another 251 redirected to supportive positions near a house in (B). Both were the lead vehicles of 2. Plt and just need few meters to accomplish. Remainders to hold current position. When road is cleared from 1. Plt.ongoing movements in (B), 2. Plt to follow 1. Plt in turn 3 at the earliest.

4. Plt four HMG teams dismount in (B) and occupy buildings (?) hopefully offering commanding lines toward church and towns western main entry/croassroads. If desired LOS/LOF present, then "deploy weapon" order for HMG´s in houses remain active in follow up turn 3. That should take 2.3 minutes according to unit data and accomplished around turn 4 or 5 I hope. If no apropiate LOS/LOF can be gained from the houses, then move off and check alternative ones in (B) at next turn.

3. Plt (unmounted) keeps quick moving towards (B) and seek covered positions.

Stummel section moves to (B), with one vehicle redirected to left hand edge of (B) near a large barn. Coy HQ follows to (B) as well.
Bn HQ  mounted, keeps moving toward (B).

2. Coy

all units keep quick moving towards (C) and (D), if crest remains free from possible enemy intediction from the west.

This plan should hopefully get the rest of 1. Plt to the church til end of game turn 2. To help speeding up the process, dismounting orders were issued to the grenadiers still moving with their 251, so these can dismount without loss of time, once the 251´s reached their final objectives in current game turn. Quick move dismount set for the Grenadiers at the hedges east of churchyard at (A). This should give them some cover, before likely enemy units arrive from the west. 2.Plt forward HT (251/17 and 251/1) should be in supportive positions the same time, as should possibly HMG teams in the houses in (2) and (?)

 

Execution phase report to be prepared....

Edited March 7, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Guess my style of writing is not that easy to comprehend, maybe from me beeing german native speaker and lack of practice to translate properly to english. Yet I have a somewhat hidden purpose also.  From my studies of german original WW2 military manuals and wargaming hobby, I´d like to try getting both worlds somewhat closer together, carrying over typical german military methods, as well as specific language into english native speakers wargaming world. Thus far I found it fairly difficult, since our CM games scale requires to step into all shoes the same time. Thus the apparently unnecessary detail in my writings. I´ll think about how to make it all a less heavy fare, but you can help!

I did a bit reading at John Baum´s translated german manuals site, particularly his samples are of interest. I can well compare his translations with german originals in my possession and thus far I found he did quite a good job. I can well "read out" the actual german phrases (or tone) used in original german manuals, but what interests me is how well it is all to comprehend for native (and non native) english speakers? I also have a good amount of english language manuals and it´s very clear those using a very different writing style, terminology and phrases, when comapred to John Baum´s translations. So any of you having time and interest to help me out, please read some the linked samples below and let me know what you think! 

https://www.germanmanuals.com/images/Tactics-140.jpg

https://www.germanmanuals.com/images/Tactics-57.jpg

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by RockinHarry

[RockinHarry]

Some more thoughts re "stepping into all shoes the same time" in CM and this particular QB mission set up having no actual general goal (no game objective map zones). If it would just be from a Bn commanders POV and assuming his Bn is part of a larger formations framework, I´d construct in mind something like this, also serving as possible game briefing basis, if beeing a non QB mission:

Situation: "3. Pz.Gren.Bn currently on the move, tasked to provide right flank security for the Regt´s attack toward the west, just arrived east at Oosterbeek outskirts, with 1st and 2nd Cpy up and 3rd in Bn reserve (offmap, non available). The mounted parts (1. and 2. Plt) of 1st Coy, previously helping out 2nd Bn pushing back enemy counterattack at X, now again merged with 1. Coy in advanced position. Advanced ground recon intel just coming in, tells the enemy aparently composed of mechanized forces fast approaching Oosterbeek outskirts from the east."

Decision and quick evaluation: "With given task of regimental flank security and enemy approaching fast, Bn commander decides to immediately precede into Oosterbeek at increased speed, to deny enemy vital road network and observation points toward regimental rear area. 1. and 2 Coy already in position at Oosterbeek outskirts, as well as mounted 1. and 2. Plt of 1 Coy, as just have arrived, are immediately available to keep moving into town at increased pace. With vital observation point of Ooosterbeek church on 1. Coy move axis, mounted 1. and 2 Plt to move at max speed to church and occupy before the enemy. Remaining parts of 1.Coy and 2. Coy to quickly gain commanding positions on the road network and then push back any enemy that intruded into town. For immediate support, just organic mortars are available. Regimental support units currently engaged with main attack of 1. Bn to the south and non available."

So this would be it basically just stepping into rather offensivley minded Bn commander´s shoes for this QB game. We presume that the Bn commander with given task of regimental flank security, intended previously to move through Ooosterbeek and beyond, until contact with the enemy believed yet further off. Due to the changed situation (enemy just outside Oosterbeek, quickly approaching), our Bn commander needed to decide for attack from the move with available forces. I´d also presume we have rather fresh Bn forces, just previously filled up with replacements, but none for the halftracks and heavy support Coy. The 3. Pz.Gren.Bn being not engaged previously and just marching, has ammo stocks yet full. Overall quality of force composes of a small core of veterans, mixed with regulars. Thus overally a "regular" quality force. NCO replacements made of returning from R&R previously wounded veterans, so a number of +1 leaders are strewn among the combat squads and specialists. I think this is a well suited setting for late 1944 western front.

A more defensively minded Bn commander could also have decided to cautiosly push recon into town and follow up with main force, when enemy movements and compositions are more clear. This would also apply to the regimental task for the Bn to provide security, BUT at the disadvantage of not taking initiative and denying enemy early observation into the regimental rear. This could also be a possible branch for a CM campaign for a follow up mission when the church is not taken. The Bn might receive less supplies and replacements, due to effective enemy Art. interdiction on the forces rear area and such.

So back constructing the initial QB map and force selection situation into more something like a real mission with briefing, should give me more fun as I can forget about the more simple "test mods and kill pixeltroopers" approach. We´ll see. 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

So any of you having time and interest to help me out, please read some the linked samples below and let me know what you think! 

To make text easier to read and understand:

1: Place the active verb in the first part of the sentence. German is often difficult to read because it places the verb very late.

"Far reaching artillery fire and advancing enemy forces, as assumed in the situation, are expected" 

-> We expect the enemy to advance, supported by long-range artillery.

2: Write shorter sentences, and try to limit the amount of information each sentence carries. If there's a part of the sentence that's less important, skip it or place it at the end:

"Blue is deployed and goes from the southwest to attack the enemy, who, according to aircraft information in the early morning of June 21, has made their defense northeast of Zeitl-Baches"

-> Blue is deployed and attacks from the southwest. The enemy has prepared defences northeast of Zeitl-Baches (according to aerial recon from the early morning of June 21).

3: Be careful not to translate figures of speech too literally.

"Must important points first be taken in hand by the neighbors before our own attack promises success?"

-> "Do we need to wait for friendly forces to take key terrain before our own attack can succeed"?

[RockinHarry]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

To make text easier to read and understand:

1: Place the active verb in the first part of the sentence. German is often difficult to read because it places the verb very late.

"Far reaching artillery fire and advancing enemy forces, as assumed in the situation, are expected" 

-> We expect the enemy to advance, supported by long-range artillery.

2: Write shorter sentences, and try to limit the amount of information each sentence carries. If there's a part of the sentence that's less important, skip it or place it at the end:

"Blue is deployed and goes from the southwest to attack the enemy, who, according to aircraft information in the early morning of June 21, has made their defense northeast of Zeitl-Baches"

-> Blue is deployed and attacks from the southwest. The enemy has prepared defences northeast of Zeitl-Baches (according to aerial recon from the early morning of June 21).

3: Be careful not to translate figures of speech too literally.

"Must important points first be taken in hand by the neighbors before our own attack promises success?"

-> "Do we need to wait for friendly forces to take key terrain before our own attack can succeed"?

Thanks! It´s my overall impression as well. Syntax used is almost the same as german originals and much of it really translated literally. Still a great achievment, considering that Baum is non german speaker and translated by use of dictionaries and translator apps (read on his website). Guess as native english speaker, though somewhat hard to read, one still can grasp the essence of it all fairly easy. Auto translators surely will make a complete mess of it all, considering the very specific topics and peculiarities of the at that times military language.

I´ll somehow attempt to get it all in a format that makes it comfortably to read generally, while preserving some the mentioned german command language peculiarities.