Need Help With Designing Unit Objectives

[Ted]

I am creating a scenario with both Terrain and Unit Objectives.

This is the first time creating a scenario with Unit Objectives.

For that matter, I never even played a scenario with Unit objectives before.

I have some questions that I need help with.

 

In the Scenario Editor - Units I assigned as a Unit Objective 3 German Units:

U1 - Tank

U2 - Gun

U3 – 1 Wire plus 1 Mines, or what I call the Road Block

 

In the Mission Editor I assigned a name and point value to each U-Ob’s.

 

I then went to deploy the German units.

According to the manual “When Deploying Units in the 3D Preview” I should see a U in the Suppression Area of the team info panel followed by the number of the objective.

I don’t see a U1, U2, U3 in any of the Suppression areas all I see is an A:1 the same as all the other units.

 

I ran a test to see if they actually had point values in the scenario and if they counted towards the Victory Conditions.

I set the scenario for 10 minutes and just clicked Go without moving anyone.

At the end the Allies failed to, but could have, received points for the Tank (U1) and the Gun (U2) but the Scenario did not recognize the Road Block (U3) as an objective even though I had given it a U#, name and point value.  

 

The Germans did not receive any points for saving the Unit Objectives from being destroyed by the Allies.

 

Questions

1) Why did I not see a U# when deploying in the Suppression Area of the Unit Objectives I created?

2) Other than being told, is there a way either side knows what the Unit Objectives are? For example Terrain Objectives are highlighted, are Unit Objectives marked in anyway while playing the Scenario?

3) Why didn’t the wire and minefield points count towards the Victory Conditions? Can an inanimate objects be given as a Unit Objective?

4) Should the side tasked with defending the objectives receive points for avoiding their destruction?

 

Thanks for any input and/or advice.

 

 

[RockinHarry]

hm... just checked one my own missions which I know it all works as intended. Can´t see the "U" in suppression area either. R and A show up as they should. Now I can´t recall if I´d ever seen the U showing up in 3D editors unit suppression area in the past. 

Removed Juju´s UI mod for quick test, but that´s not the reason for the U not showing up.

To the other issue: Did you set "known to player" when setting other parameters to destroy/destroy all with point and names assigned?

to the fort units, I´d never tried destroy/unit objective this way so need to test myself. Could be it rather counts for destroy/preserve terrain objects, but I really don´t know ATM.

[Ted]

Hey, Rockin' thanks for the quick reply.

I did set the Objective to "Known to Both Players".

That was a good thought on the UI Mod. Didn't think of that myself.

I should have pointed out that this is a CMBN V4.0 scenario also.

 

 

[MikeyD]

This is the first time I can recall someone trying to make wire and mines a 'unit objective'. I would imagine (not based on any testing) that wire and mines are inert, incapable of being suppressed/killed/captured. They may be purchased and placed like living units but they aren't... I would imagine.

[RockinHarry]

33 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

This is the first time I can recall someone trying to make wire and mines a 'unit objective'. I would imagine (not based on any testing) that wire and mines are inert, incapable of being suppressed/killed/captured. They may be purchased and placed like living units but they aren't... I would imagine.

Mee to, but I like the idea for some minor tactical things to consider in a mission.

With regard to "roadblock" type arrangements I´d used low bocage across roads within woods, simulating felled trees and the like. Or walls in combo with bad going terrain and some flavors put on top to spice that up (flavors do not count for anything though). Need to try testing if "destroy area" also counts for bocage and walls and not just buildings/bridges as the game manual suggests. If yes, that might also help @Ted to solve the issue with the "wire/minefield" type roadblock.

Edit: the walls & bocage type arrangement also requires the player to actively deal with it by means of demolitions and such. I´d a CMFB mission WIP that uses this with the player required to "open" that roadblock in order to get follow up forces getting on to the next target. Beeing a defended roadblock the player also needs to sweep the enemy from the immediate area, so this is not just a simply go there and blow up affair.

Edited March 3, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Ted]

In the Scenario Editor/Units/Purchase Axis Units you can purchase wire and assign it a Unit Objective number. Then go to Mission/Unit Objectives and choose from Destroy, Destroy All or Spot. Nothing about suppression/killed/captured. Unless the wording is just semantics and Destroy is the same thing as Kill. Now that you brought it up, and it's a good point, you may be able to Destroy or Spot wire and mines but you can't destroy a trench or a foxholes.

Also re-reading the manual it says "To designate a unit or formation as a scenario objective....." Unit probably means infantry or armor. 

 

[Combatintman]

Reference your comment about the Germans not receiving any points for saving the unit objectives from the Allies - that is normal. Unit objective points are only awarded to the side that has to destroy/destroy all/spot or preserve them. In this case let's say you had allocated 100 VPs for U1, 100 VPs for U2 and 100 VPs for U3 as destroy objectives. If the Allied player wiped out U1 but none of the others, the Allied player would get 100 VPs, the Axis player would receive no points for 'saving' U2 and U3.

[Ted]

So what you are saying is the Germans would lose 100 to 0 even though they prevented the Allies from achieving two thirds of their goal?

In that case how could the Germans ever win a victory? It seems that way, at best, all the Germans could do is achieve a Draw by holding the Allies to 0, no?

[Combatintman]

2 minutes ago, Ted said:

So what you are saying is the Germans would lose 100 to 0 even though they prevented the Allies from achieving two thirds of their goal?

In that case how could the Germans ever win a victory? It seems that way, at best, all the Germans could do is achieve a Draw by holding the Allies to 0, no?

Correct. To balance it out you need to give the Germans some objectives. Let's say that the US attackers are a platoon of Shermans, a platoon of infantry and an engineer squad. You set those up as Axis 'Destroy' unit objectives with say U1 as the Sherman Platoon worth 100 VPs, the infantry platoon as U2 worth 100 VPs and the engineer squad as U3 worth 100 VPs. If the Germans wipe out the engineer squad they will get 100 VPs.

[RockinHarry]

9 minutes ago, Ted said:

So what you are saying is the Germans would lose 100 to 0 even though they prevented the Allies from achieving two thirds of their goal?

In that case how could the Germans ever win a victory? It seems that way, at best, all the Germans could do is achieve a Draw by holding the Allies to 0, no?

Did you made the settings in "unit objectives (allied)" btw? It somehow sounds like you made your entries in "unit objectives (axis)"! This would explain you not getting points as allied player for destroying axis units IMO.

Edited March 3, 2019 by RockinHarry

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, Ted said:

Questions

1) Why did I not see a U# when deploying in the Suppression Area of the Unit Objectives I created?

2) Other than being told, is there a way either side knows what the Unit Objectives are? For example Terrain Objectives are highlighted, are Unit Objectives marked in anyway while playing the Scenario?

3) Why didn’t the wire and minefield points count towards the Victory Conditions? Can an inanimate objects be given as a Unit Objective?

4) Should the side tasked with defending the objectives receive points for avoiding their destruction?  

1)  I have never seen the U show up in the suppression meter.  

2)  A player only knows what the unit objectives are if he is told in the briefing.  

3) That is frustrating.  I tried that for a scenario and tested it but it does not work.  I think I wanted a minefield to be a spot objective.  The editor will allow you to assign the fortification a Unit Objective number however it will not be counted on the AAR screen.  

 

48 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Me to, but I like the idea for some minor tactical things to consider in a mission.

Agreed.  Also, I found that barbwire works well for stopping wheeled vehicles at roadblocks.  Tracks will crush it of course.      

[RockinHarry]

4 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

3) That is frustrating.  I tried that for a scenario and tested it but it does not work.  I think I wanted a minefield to be a spot objective.  The editor will allow you to assign the fortification a Unit Objective number however it will not be counted on the AAR screen.  

thanks for confirmation. That frees me of the time I´d wasted testing this (again). Probably did this already years ago and forgot about again, since it didn´t work.

Edited March 3, 2019 by RockinHarry

[Heirloom_Tomato]

@Ted If you load up the Challenge Battle I posted for this weekend, Challenge Battle #5, check out how I assigned points to each side. It might help with what you are planning to do. I would be more than willing to help out if you would like. 

[RockinHarry]

Made an interesting test. Destroy bocage terrain AS yields no points, as expected actually. Had a 40m deep (5 AS) felled tree forest roadblock tackled with 2 demo teams and the 8 charges were just enough to clear some gap through the whole (low bocage) obstacle. The follow up Stug going through it got temporarily bogged 3-4 times (muddy setting) though and made it at last. Since destroy terrain VP doesn´t work (unless building or bridge) I think I also get along with touch instead, giving some hints in the briefing. I´ll make some further test with walls, but I do not expect any exceptions from the rule.

[MOS:96B2P]

19 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Made an interesting test. Destroy bocage terrain AS yields no points, as expected actually. Had a 40m deep (5 AS) felled tree forest roadblock tackled with 2 demo teams and the 8 charges were just enough to clear some gap through the whole (low bocage) obstacle. The follow up Stug going through it got temporarily bogged 3-4 times (muddy setting) though and made it at last. Since destroy terrain VP doesn´t work (unless building or bridge) I think I also get along with touch instead, giving some hints in the briefing. I´ll make some further test with walls, but I do not expect any exceptions from the rule.

It works with a preserve objective in CMSF2.  I used it in my current scenario, Coup d'etat.  I made a one action spot tile a rebel preserve objective worth Victory Points.  Then placed a huge or large IED on the action spot.  The action spots typically contain a government vehicle or checkpoint etc.  The rebels can detonate the IEDs but using IEDs will cost their rebellion legitimacy which is reflected by the lost VPs.  So the player has a command decision - will the use of IEDs be worth the lost VPs?  Of course just change who must "preserve" the terrain tile to make it work for what you want to accomplish.  

[Ted]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Did you made the settings in "unit objectives (allied)" btw? It somehow sounds like you made your entries in "unit objectives (axis)"! This would explain you not getting points as allied player for destroying axis units IMO.

No no, Under "Units" in the editor I assigned German units as Unit Objectives when you purchase them and then switch to back To Mission - Unit Objectives (Allied) and give them a value.

2 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

If you load up the Challenge Battle I posted for this weekend, Challenge Battle #5, check out how I assigned points to each side. It might help with what you are planning to do. I would be more than willing to help out if you would like.

Where would I find this battle?

And HT, the reason for this is I'm trying to put together a tournament over at the Few Good Men website and if you would want to create a scenario for it it would get a lot of play test and feedback.

 

22 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It works with a preserve objective in CMSF2.

I don't think that's an option in CMBN (?)

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

1)  I have never seen the U show up in the suppression meter.  

2)  A player only knows what the unit objectives are if he is told in the briefing.  

3) That is frustrating.  I tried that for a scenario and tested it but it does not work.  I think I wanted a minefield to be a spot objective.  The editor will allow you to assign the fortification a Unit Objective number however it will not be counted on the AAR screen.  

 

Agreed.  Also, I found that barbwire works well for stopping wheeled vehicles at roadblocks.  Tracks will crush it of course.      

The Roadblock I thought I would create was a AT minefield under barbed wire. I though it would be interesting to have to protect and be careful with an engineering squad so it could get close enough to clear it.

[RockinHarry]

36 minutes ago, Ted said:

No no, Under "Units" in the editor I assigned German units as Unit Objectives when you purchase them and then switch to back To Mission - Unit Objectives (Allied) and give them a value.

ok, just for clarification.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It works with a preserve objective in CMSF2.  I used it in my current scenario, Coup d'etat.  I made a one action spot tile a rebel preserve objective worth Victory Points.  Then placed a huge or large IED on the action spot.  The action spots typically contain a government vehicle or checkpoint etc.  The rebels can detonate the IEDs but using IEDs will cost their rebellion legitimacy which is reflected by the lost VPs.  So the player has a command decision - will the use of IEDs be worth the lost VPs?  Of course just change who must "preserve" the terrain tile to make it work for what you want to accomplish.  

Still both do not work on bocage terrain, neither for destroy, nor preserve in CMBN, even when all concerning bocage segments are blasted off in an AS. If a building is put in there as well (taking a small barn for testing) and it gets destroyed, points are counted as they should, for both preserve and destroy. Ok, then buildings and bridges only as presumed so this case is cleared for me.

Another interesting observation during that test is that 8 demo charges while mousholing could not bring down that tiny barn (1/2 AS). All 4 walls blasted repeatedly and still kept standing (though properly holed).  I might to try area firing short range, so maybe a single thrown charge does the trick?

[Heirloom_Tomato]

Here it is:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k5v42gds4y7e2so/AADyXv9MCabs64EVeJJFv0jua?dl=0

Why don't you send me a pm with some more details about the tournament scenario?

[MOS:96B2P]

49 minutes ago, Ted said:

The Roadblock I thought I would create was a AT minefield under barbed wire. I though it would be interesting to have to protect and be careful with an engineering squad so it could get close enough to clear it.

Hmm, the engineers can walk across an AT minefield with no problem.  Only vehicles will set off an AT mine (or large artillery).  I think if engineers demo the barbwire they may also set off the mines under the wire.  I think I tested this trying to find a way to clear a minefield.  The problem is the engineers will take casualties.   Maybe put AP minefields in the action spots around the barbwire but not in the same action spots as the wire.  

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

If a building is put in there as well (taking a small barn for testing) and it gets destroyed, points are counted as they should, for both preserve and destroy. 

Another interesting observation during that test is that 8 demo charges while mousholing could not bring down that tiny barn (1/2 AS). All 4 walls blasted repeatedly and still kept standing (though properly holed).  I might to try area firing short range, so maybe a single thrown charge does the trick?

Interesting.  In the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center I tried to make the small ½ action spot barns preserve objective.  However they would not go below ½ VPs.  So if a barn was worth 10 VPs.  It could be leveled and only cost 5 VPs. 

I had the same experience with taking out all the walls with demo charges and the building still stood with just the four corners holding the roof.     

[RockinHarry]

2 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Interesting.  In the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center I tried to make the small ½ action spot barns preserve objective.  However they would not go below ½ VPs.  So if a barn was worth 10 VPs.  It could be leveled and only cost 5 VPs. 

I had the same experience with taking out all the walls with demo charges and the building still stood with just the four corners holding the roof.     

Lol  ..then (repeated) mousholing in the game is not quite the same as deliberately blowing stuff into pieces by just placing a sufficiently large single charge.

Interesting to know about the 1/2 VP for the shack. Though I think I´ll never use that as preserve objective, beside the single test I made.  Luckily I had a 10,5 cm Stug howitzer nearby in that test mission that gots me rid of the shack with 2 shots. Otherwise I couldn´t have tested the final VP allocation for the purpose that quickly. Always learns something new every day.  

[MikeyD]

If you find your scenario's getting a bit lop-sided points wise with all of the unit objectives, remember under 'Parameters' you can assign a block of points as a 'Friendly Bonus'. This comes in handy if you've got a scenario that ends with a 'major victory' to the wrong side if the player quits after the first turn. One of the (many) items to check while reworking CMSF2 scenarios was to quit after the first turn and see where the victory points fell.

[ASL Veteran]

I don't know how far along you are, but the only victory points each side earns are the victory points that you assign to each side.  You should also assign each side an equal number of victory points in order to balance out the victory conditions.  Sometimes that can be hard to do, but MikeyD's suggestion of the bonus points can work in those instances, but typically that is only going to work in a very unbalanced scenario where the side gaining them will probably have a difficult time achieving anything else.  So if the only unit objectives that you have assigned are for 'German' forces destruction then only the Americans will be able to earn any points.  You can offset that by giving the Germans a terrain victory location that they need to hold or you can give the German's unit destruction VPs for destroying American forces.  There are also Parameter VPs as well as different variety of Terrain VPs to choose from.  I have to admit that I've never tried to assign unit destruction points to non units, but I suppose it would be possible to assign VPs to something like a trench for example.  The problem is that a trench is indestructible so I'm thinking those points would never be earned.  Wire and mines I guess are theoretically possible to destroy I guess, but I'm thinking it would be more logical to leave those VPs out and just give the Germans a terrain objective to 'Hold'.  So unit objectives for the Americans totaling 200 points and hold terrain objective for the Germans for 200 points.  That gives each side 200 points possible so each side's available points are equal.

[MikeyD]

I'm a big fan of assigning 'destroy' unit objectives to blocks of units. Like 50 points for officers killed, 100 points for specialist teams, 250 points for infantry. so if you're killing the enemy you're earning points.