z1812 Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 As per the title here is a link. https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-threadbare-army-bundeswehr/ I can't say that I agree with all of the Authors observations but it is an interesting read. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 This should be in the GDF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 16, 2019 Author Share Posted February 16, 2019 35 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said: This should be in the GDF. This is the General Discussion Forum........................ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 (edited) Politico tends to post 'opinion pieces' by authors with an axe to grind so caviat emptor. It should be noted before Putin decided to single-handedly restart the Cold War for his own domestic purposes Germany had no enemies on its borders and no credible existential threats to defend against. Why keep up a million man army? All that changed after 2014. It has been reported that Donbas 'rebels' field a larger operational tank army than the Bundeswehr. On top of that the US abruptly turned into the world's most unreliable ally. This article out of Brussels is no doubt part of a public relations campaign to create support for rearming and re-configuring NATO defense structure to be more self-reliant. Edited February 17, 2019 by MikeyD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MikeyD said: the US abruptly turned into the world's most unreliable ally You mean the US "started taking action to force its allies to live up to their obligations". There is no evidence of actual unreliability on any side since NATO hasn't (AFAIK) been attacked yet.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 16 hours ago, z1812 said: This is the General Discussion Forum........................ This is the CM2 General Discussion forum. What does this have to do with CM2? Nothing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 3 hours ago, General Jack Ripper said: This is the CM2 General Discussion forum. What does this have to do with CM2? Nothing. Really? This is a big deal for you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 21 hours ago, z1812 said: Really? This is a big deal for you? Yes. It is. Some members catch serious stick for posting off-topic in the wrong forum. What, should we make an exception for you? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 11 minutes ago, General Jack Ripper said: Yes. It is. Some members catch serious stick for posting off-topic in the wrong forum. What, should we make an exception for you? Your such a pleasant fellow. Did it occur to you that the Bundeswehr is featured in CMSF2 and that people may have an interest in how it has developed over the years. They may even wish to use CMSF2 to create a current scenario using the Germans, in which case this information would be of interest. "What, should we make an exception for you?" you ask. So you speak for everyone on this forum? As I understand it the Forum is moderated by Battlefront....not Jack Ripper. 236 views shows interest in the article...............and your the only one to complain. Do you think maybe your out of step.......a bit grumpy perhaps? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 On 2/16/2019 at 10:46 AM, z1812 said: As per the title here is a link. https://www.politico.eu/article/germany-biggest-enemy-threadbare-army-bundeswehr/ I can't say that I agree with all of the Authors observations but it is an interesting read. why can you not agree, Do you know that the state of the forces is in better shape than it states in this article? Is the government doing more to fund the needs of the forces? Any time I read or see such articles I do wonder what the path is that world is taking. I sure do not to see any major war erupt in the world. But if countries lay down their guard and weaken themselves from within, then it is a sure fired method for such a event to happen. The cost to maintain military forces is a great burden, but one that cannot be cheated on for other things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 minute ago, slysniper said: why can you not agree, Do you know that the state of the forces is in better shape than it states in this article? Is the government doing more to fund the needs of the forces? Any time I read or see such articles I do wonder what the path is that world is taking. I sure do not to see any major war erupt in the world. But if countries lay down their guard and weaken themselves from within, then it is a sure fired method for such a event to happen. The cost to maintain military forces is a great burden, but one that cannot be cheated on for other things. I don't disagree with the analysis that the German army is failing but rather with some of the political issues hinted at. It would make an interesting discussion but politics is a often a Rabbit Hole easily fallen into and hard to get out of. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 The one point mentioned that I would be interested in, is how the German people do feel about their men and woman in uniform. Like everything in life, there is going to be those that do look and treat them with distain. But I wonder what percentage of their people support and treat their troops with the respect that is deserved. At least that is one thing here in the United States that has been good for awhile now. The average citizen at least realizes these people are what helps to make their country what it is and it allows them the freedoms they have. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, slysniper said: Like everything in life, there is going to be those that do look and treat them with distain. But I wonder what percentage of their people support and treat their troops with the respect that is deserved. At least that is one thing here in the United States that has been good for awhile now. The average citizen at least realizes these people are what helps to make their country what it is and it allows them the freedoms they have. One of the great tragedies and ironies of WW2 was that the Nazis had much the same rationale - their military was fighting for freedom from the evil of communism. We now know different, but that's the story they told each other. For the US, the memory of the war is something glorious. For each American casualty, how many soldiers returned in triumph? For the Germans... well, maybe some Germans also now look at their military and think it made their country what it is, but reaching a different conclusion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 hours ago, slysniper said: The one point mentioned that I would be interested in, is how the German people do feel about their men and woman in uniform. Like everything in life, there is going to be those that do look and treat them with distain. But I wonder what percentage of their people support and treat their troops with the respect that is deserved. At least that is one thing here in the United States that has been good for awhile now. The average citizen at least realizes these people are what helps to make their country what it is and it allows them the freedoms they have. Well, I do not live in Germany since a long time, but I dare to say the feelings are mainly „neutral“. Nobody (except for the directly involved) really cares and a soldier is usually seen as any other „worker”. Especially, I don’t think that anybody (including me) bought, that our freedom has to be defended at the Hindukush”.That was probably „The mother of all f.. up explanations“ and killed a lot of support. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 hours ago, slysniper said: why can you not agree, Do you know that the state of the forces is in better shape than it states in this article? Is the government doing more to fund the needs of the forces? Any time I read or see such articles I do wonder what the path is that world is taking. I sure do not to see any major war erupt in the world. But if countries lay down their guard and weaken themselves from within, then it is a sure fired method for such a event to happen. The cost to maintain military forces is a great burden, but one that cannot be cheated on for other things. Eh, not only recently the German government tried to improve. But too many f... (or better „not so good“) projects make the efforts look feeble. It‘s difficult to support, if new planes and choppers don‘t fly, new Frigates and U-Boats don‘t sail, etc. The latest is, that the renovation of a sailing ship turned into a disaster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 hours ago, slysniper said: But if countries lay down their guard and weaken themselves from within, then it is a sure fired method for such a event to happen. The cost to maintain military forces is a great burden, but one that cannot be cheated on for other things. I cannot really agree with this statement. I don‘t see much sense for many small countries to invest in self-defense. The same goes for extremely poor countries. There is not much sense in buying an outdated jet and two tanks with the last Dollar you have. Or in case of Switzerland in buying 5 top-notch or 20 „not quite“ top-notch planes. Another somewhat ancient example: I do not know, what it did cost the UK to maintain a half-company of Marines on the Falklands, but I do think their three hours of Résistance were not worth it. Let me not be mistaken: I believe to re-take the Falklands was worth the effort. Without wanting to hurt anybody, I refer to amount of money, which Greece wasted in a strong Army to counter Turkey. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 5 hours ago, slysniper said: The one point mentioned that I would be interested in, is how the German people do feel about their men and woman in uniform. This article provides some insight regarding the quote above. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40172317 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 "I don‘t see much sense for many small countries to invest in self-defense." Not a very good global view of things. Countries don't invest in defense because they know some bigger country or the UN will come to their aid. Its unfair and dangerous for everyone. This is how you end up with several countries being over committed to UN budgets and deployments. These small countries should commit some budget so that they can contribute to UN missions, at the least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Well let's turn this back to Combat Mission. How much of a force could Germany send to Ukraine in Black Sea's 2018 conflict. Second question is how much would they? One division plus some quick reaction troops? More? Less? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 58 minutes ago, z1812 said: This article provides some insight regarding the quote above. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40172317 interesting post. It is all coming down to money, many countries not wanting to flip the bill that it cost for these things. What I am amazed of, is that they think the US and Nato can protect them. If any real events were to happen, I think there is plenty of evidence that shows that logic doesn't really work out. The only thing the US can provide quickly is air power and that is if they want to. The US is not positioned to get large amounts of troops to one spot quickly, past events has proven it. They are also being stretched as to all the places they are having to keep forces. And if a time comes that countries do find themselves needing military help, it will a interesting decision. Do you help a country that is doing it part in its defense's before you help a country that has lacked in its support for its protection. interesting times, that is for sure 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Thewood1 said: "I don‘t see much sense for many small countries to invest in self-defense." Not a very good global view of things. Countries don't invest in defense because they know some bigger country or the UN will come to their aid. Its unfair and dangerous for everyone. This is how you end up with several countries being over committed to UN budgets and deployments. These small countries should commit some budget so that they can contribute to UN missions, at the least. Yep, I know it‘s a thin line. But would you feel better if, say, the Vatikan could contribute 2 Swiss Guards to a conflict. Well, we are talking Swiss Guards, so we may triple the value. Let‘s say a 6 men contingent. The cost to incorporate such „contributions“ would probably outweigh the result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 50 minutes ago, Sequoia said: Well let's turn this back to Combat Mission. How much of a force could Germany send to Ukraine in Black Sea's 2018 conflict. Second question is how much would they? One division plus some quick reaction troops? More? Less? Right now? I‘d say they „could“ send a Battlion at most, but certainly not as one integral force, like a complete Tank Battalion. But what would be politically possible, aka accepted? After Afghanistan and Iraq, probably nothing. Certainly no fighting force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Well the Black Sea "Lore" has a period of rising tensions for a period of months with the War starting in June 2017 (not 2018 like I posted earlier). That would allow more units to be made combat ready. Any US forces would need preparation as well. The Lore has NATO moving units into Eastern Poland before the shooting starts. Interestingly the Lore has a USMC landing near Odessa to save the City. In another thread some one commented NATO ships approaching the Northern Black Sea would be sitting ducks. I'm not qualified to comment on the political acceptance of Germany contributing to the NATO force, but also in another thread some one mentioned the British public was against sending troops to Iraq for the most part but Tony Blair sent them anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted February 19, 2019 Author Share Posted February 19, 2019 This article was just published today concerning how Germany feels about Military and Foreign Policy issues. https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/it-is-time-for-germans-to-talk-about-sicherheitspolitik/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted February 19, 2019 Share Posted February 19, 2019 3 hours ago, z1812 said: This article was just published today concerning how Germany feels about Military and Foreign Policy issues. https://warontherocks.com/2019/02/it-is-time-for-germans-to-talk-about-sicherheitspolitik/ Interesting, in a way. Quite true in many ways. But quite biased, too. What the author says is: We need a discussion, but the result must comply with my opinion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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