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30 years ago today

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42 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Um... I think the Soviets were forced out.  The Soviet-imposed govt was hated IIRC.

It's Afghanistan. Everybody hates everybody. But only a Soviet backed communist government could have stopped the Taliban.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

But only a Soviet backed communist government could have stopped the Taliban.

Do you really believe that?  :o

Given the historically dismal record of attempts to impose external 'systems' on Afghanistan, I see Taliban (as a home grown 'institution', however horrible), as best bet for the future of the country.....My sincere apologies to the women of Afghanistan, but there it is.  :ph34r: 

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31 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Do you really believe that?  :o

Given the historically dismal record of attempts to impose external 'systems' on Afghanistan, I see Taliban (as a home grown 'institution', however horrible), as best bet for the future of the country.....My sincere apologies to the women of Afghanistan, but there it is.  :ph34r: 

Can you please give me your phone number? My wife likes to speak to you. Yes, she's from Afghanistan. Refugee. Same as the rest of her family.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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21 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

PM sent.  :)

I'm genuinely interested to know how you believe the Soviets could have prevented the rise of the Taliban or perhaps the morphing of the Mujahidin into the Taliban. 

PM anwered. 😀

I'm not saying that the Soviets could have prevented the rise of the Taliban, but they were more up to the task than NATO ever was or will be. War against the Taliban has to be completly ruthless in order to achieve victory and the West most certainly is nog capable of that. We're too soft and too sensitive of media and public opinion. So if there ever was a power that could have beaten the Taliban, it would have been the Russians.

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I’m with Aragon on this. Russia...or China. ROEs required for Westerners to stomach battling evil regimes will never work...only cause casualties for no gain.

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3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

PM anwered. 😀

I'm not saying that the Soviets could have prevented the rise of the Taliban, but they were more up to the task than NATO ever was or will be. War against the Taliban has to be completly ruthless in order to achieve victory and the West most certainly is nog capable of that. We're too soft and too sensitive of media and public opinion. So if there ever was a power that could have beaten the Taliban, it would have been the Russians. 

This is quite the chicken and egg problem you've created here, given that the rise of the Taliban was due in large part to Soviet brutality which forced millions to flee into neighboring Pakistani refugee camps where radicalization efforts were being undertaken. Turns out bombing cities doesn't exactly stop people from joining guerilla forces.

Its also weird to accuse NATO of being too soft, given we're in a thread about about the Soviets leaving Afghanistan, which they did in large part due to declining support for the war effort.

I'd be genuinely curious to know what books you've read on this topic.

Edited by sid_burn

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47 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

This is quite the chicken and egg problem you've created here, given that the rise of the Taliban was due in large part to Soviet brutality which forced millions to flee into neighboring Pakistani refugee camps where radicalization efforts were being undertaken. Turns out bombing cities doesn't exactly stop people from joining guerilla forces.

 

Agreed. But let's not forget the support from the US. Without that no Taliban. Talking about the chicken and the egg...

47 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Its also weird to accuse NATO of being too soft, given we're in a thread about about the Soviets leaving Afghanistan, which they did in large part due to declining support for the war effort

 

No, we're not just in a thread about the Soviets leaving Afghanistan. We're also in a thread about how difficult it is to stabilize the country. Without the West and Pakistan supporting the Mujahideen the Russians would perhaps have been able to do so. NATO certainly isn't. So the only thing that is weird is your comment. Especially as this discussion really started to heat up after someone said that the Taliban is 'the best bet' for Afghanistan. But perhaps you also agree with that?

 

47 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

I'd be genuinely curious to know what books you've read on this topic.

Quite a few and more than I can remember. See below. Apart from that I spoke to lots of Afghans and other people who where there and know more about it than you and me together.

The Wars of Afghanistan: Messianic Terrorism, Tribal Conflicts, and the Failures of Great Powers

Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan, 1979-89

The Great Gamble: The Soviet War in Afghanistan

Taliban: The Power of Militant Islam in Afghanistan and Beyond

Farewell Kabul: How the West Ignored Pakistan and Lost Afghanistan

Edited by Aragorn2002

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39 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Agreed. But let's not forget the support from the US. Without that no Taliban. Talking about the chicken and the egg...

Maybe true in the very broadest sense, but far more blame goes to the Soviets basically throwing the whole country into disarray with their poorly planned and poorly executed invasion.

Quote

No, we're not just in a thread about the Soviets leaving Afghanistan. We're also in a thread about how difficult it is to stabilize the country. Without the West and Pakistan supporting the Mujahideen the Russians would perhaps have been able to do so. NATO certainly isn't. So the only thing that is weird is your comment. Especially as this discussion really started to heat up after someone said that the Taliban is 'the best bet' for Afghanistan. But perhaps you also agree with that?

This is a very spicy accusation. Clearly there can be no middle ground between the Taliban and depopulating whole villages like the Soviets did, right? Those barbarous Afghans need a firm hand and all that. The Soviets were just following the well-known and very successful tactics of another power that stabilized regions, Nazi Germany. Take fire from a village? Erase said village, pacify countries with this one little trick.

We shouldn't be surprised at this level of competence from the Soviet Union, they did after all compromise FDR ;)

Quote

 

Quite a few and more than I can remember. See below. Apart from that I spoke to lots of Afghans and other people who where there and know more about it than you and me together.

The Wars of Afghanistan: Messianic Terrorism, Tribal Conflicts, and the Failures of Great Powers

Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan, 1979-89

The Great Gamble: The Soviet War in Afghanistan

Taliban: The Power of Militant Islam in Afghanistan and Beyond

Farewell Kabul: How the West Ignored Pakistan and Lost Afghanistan

I'm curious how you read some of these books, like Afghantsy, and still come to the conclusion that the Soviets knew what they were doing lmao.


Give me your wife's number, I'll call her up and we can hear what she thinks of such takes.

Edited by sid_burn

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36 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Maybe true in the very broadest sense, but far more blame goes to the Soviets basically throwing the whole country into disarray with their poorly planned and poorly executed invasion.

 

Yeah, sounds familiair, doesn't it?

36 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

This is a very spicy accusation. Clearly there can be no middle ground between the Taliban and depopulating whole villages like the Soviets did, right? Those barbarous Afghans need a firm hand and all that. The Soviets were just following the well-known and very successful tactics of another power that stabilized regions, Nazi Germany. Take fire from a village? Erase said village, pacify countries with this one little trick.

 

Middle ground? Hmm, let me think. Vietnam perhaps?

36 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

We shouldn't be surprised at this level of competence from the Soviet Union, they did after all compromise FDR ;)

They sure did. But not the first and certainly not the last of your presidents who blundered his way through history.

36 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

I'm curious how you read some of these books, like Afghantsy, and still come to the conclusion that the Soviets knew what they were doing lmao.

I'm curious whether you can read. I said that the Russians, backing the communist government, had the best chance of stabilizing Afghanistan, especially when the West and Pakistan hadn't interfered. I didn't say it would have been easy or even succesful.

36 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Give me your wife's number, I'll call her up and we can hear what she thinks of such takes.

I understand the thought of chatting with a woman without having to pay for it, excites you, but no, sorry. 😀

Edited by Aragorn2002

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1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

They sure did. But not the first and certainly not the last of your presidents who blundered his way through history. 

I'm curious whether you can read. I said that the Russians, backing the communist government, had the best chance of stabilizing Afghanistan, especially when the West and Pakistan hadn't interfered.

Lmao. Accusing someone of not reading while also thinking FDR was an incompetent communist plant. This thread's reached its peak. Only thing missing is someone using the term "head choppers" unironically.

1 minute ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I understand the thought of chatting with a woman without having to pay for it, excites you, but no, sorry. 😀

Pretty problematic to assume my sexual orientation like that. I just figured she wanted some stimulating conversation, between you and Squarehead talking to her, she must feel like she's a nurse in a home for geriatrics ;)

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14 hours ago, sid_burn said:

I just figured she wanted some stimulating conversation, between you and Squarehead talking to her, she must feel like she's a nurse in a home for geriatrics ;)

I'm sure a chat with you would take her straight back to the kindergarten.  :rolleyes:

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20 hours ago, sid_burn said:

A poor attempt at a comeback, don't make me get @Rinaldi or @IICptMillerII I know you live in fear of confronting them ;)

I was indeed wrong about your sexual orientation. My apologies. 🤣

And you did get Rinaldi! He even gave you a Like. How sweet is that! You know what? I will also give you a Like. Little boys like you can use all the support they can get at your age.

Edited by Aragorn2002

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4 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I was indeed wrong about your sexual orientation. My apologies. 🤣

And you did get Rinaldi! He even gave you a Like. How sweet is that! You know what? I will also give you a Like. Little boys like you can use all the support they can get at your age.

Lmao. The irony of this insult on a video game forum and from a dude who likely still plays with dolls, sorry, “models” isn’t lost on me.

also it’s only gay if there’s anal penetration. Smh. You would think someone married to an Afghani would be more respecting of boy love, given its deep role in their culture.

Edited by sid_burn

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Okey dokey....I can see that this thread has more than run it's course. 

Gentlemen, please remember the forum rules and, also, please try to play nice.

Ah....my first locking of a thread. And I told myself that I wouldn't cry when this day happened.......

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