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(Too?) easy LOS and shooting through pine forests


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Not everyone knows all the common abbreviations or jargon. Especially someone who does not speak English as thier first language. So, how about we just fill people in..

WYSIWYG means what you see is what you get.

3 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Those tall pine trees can be considered pretty much telephone polls with branches starting halfway up the top. You'll get more cover from the 'hvy forest' terrain tile its sitting on than from the tree itself.

^^^ that pretty much sums it up. Without additional light or heavy forest the terrain is like a manicured lawn with trees. So. yeah not mush concealment.

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18 hours ago, IanL said:

Not everyone knows all the common abbreviations or jargon. Especially someone who does not speak English as thier first language.

The ironic thing is that I learned that phrase back in 2007 CMSF1 days from BF site.  I thought I was the only one who didn't know what it meant back then.

Edited by Erwin
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This same conversation popped up on the Steel Beasts a few months ago.  Same issue in that the AI can see through even the smallest pinhole  of foliage and react something miles away on the other side.  CM tends to have a much better spotting model at the unit level over SB, but this issue seems exactly the same.

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1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Well, it can look both ways. The problem is that in game, it looks like the one on the left, and plays like the one on the right.

I didn't have my coffee before writing that. What I meant was that the upper part of the pines look dense like the pic on the left, but what seems like very dense foliage can be spotted through.

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17 minutes ago, holoween said:

Its quite simple: trees are not to be trusted in this game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAhr14xdKGc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6ygw270QIk

Trees are simply magic.

They are not magic, but they are much more abstracted than most people realise. We see individual trees, but the engine sees "tree tiles of a certain density". In your video, your shell is assumed to have hit some tree, even though it doesn't look like it actually hits anything.

This abstraction generally works ok, but there's often a mismatch between what the human player sees (a couple of trees, no big deal) and what the game sees (a tree tile with 3 trees on it = very heavy density forest). So, in your case, you see something that looks like trees shouldn't be an obstacle, but they are. In my example, I'm seeing something that graphically looks like it should block all LOS, but it doesn't. 

Edited by Bulletpoint
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7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

They are not magic, but they are much more abstracted than most people realise. We see individual trees, but the engine sees "tree tiles of a certain density". In your video, your shell is assumed to have hit some tree, even though it doesn't look like it actually hits anything.

As far as i can tell Its a simple save roll if your vehicle is near trees hence magic.

 

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13 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

 

This abstraction generally works ok, but there's often a mismatch between what the human player sees (a couple of trees, no big deal) and what the game sees (a tree tile with 3 trees on it = very heavy density forest). So, in your case, you see something that looks like trees shouldn't be an obstacle, but they are. In my example, I'm seeing something that graphically looks like it should block all LOS, but it doesn't. 

To elaborate the issue is that individual trees sometimes matter for example for attack ground targets and for actually shooting through. this leads to the situations i made clips of where aparently there is clear line of fire but my shot gets intercepted by something but the return shot doesnt. especially noticable in the first one where a 90mm ap shot gets absorbed but the return 105mm heat shot works just fine.

 

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3 minutes ago, holoween said:

To elaborate the issue is that individual trees sometimes matter for example for attack ground targets and for actually shooting through. this leads to the situations i made clips of where aparently there is clear line of fire but my shot gets intercepted by something but the return shot doesnt. especially noticable in the first one where a 90mm ap shot gets absorbed but the return 105mm heat shot works just fine.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I've just accepted that trees are abstracted/magic as a limitation of the engine. The important bit to me is if the abstraction makes sense compared to what the graphics show. I think it should be possible to eyeball a situation and get a pretty good result. With the pine trees, I'm forced to slowly probe around for LOS using the target tool.

Not very fun, and despite what some might think, I actually do play these games for fun :)

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