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8 hours ago, George MC said:

How - if you don't mind me asking - did you manage to get the BMPs there so quick? I've tried that but never managed, as always end up running into an ambush or taking too long as I work my way forward. 

Ok, let see how good my memory is.

First, in general I actually probed every avenue of approach, seeing if I felt any was weaker than another as to using it.

(but how do you probe, with only a small amount of infantry that you are not to lose, tanks that are at risk as much as anything else to ambushes in such fighting and bmp's that are somewhat weak in general.)

it means you need overwhelming firepower the second something exposes itself. So I had a couple of bmp's over watching a few approaches while the rest of the force focused on two approaches at a time I was probing at the same time. I used the bmp's to do these probes. (I lost the two bmp's and the two tanks during these early stages of probing, the tanks were over watching the bmp's as they moved forward.)

I actually liked the far right approach before starting the battle, thinking that would give me a little open space and a little better view at targets with a little range. needless to say, I found that very well covered and choose to look elsewhere.

The far left I left off the table because of the briefing plus of the map edge, I hate using the edge as it seems a unfair advantage on this map, so I had a few units watch it and that was it.

So that left the two middle approaches. I found both difficult, but the red approach was a little better favorable terrain as to me being able to put fire on it if anything exposed itself to my lines. So it became the approach.

Lost a bmp very quickly to it, But knowing most of the ambushes were set to attack units as they pass, decided I just needed to close with and overwhelm them locations because such locations could not see me coming either. So with aggressive assaults I removed them. I did have a little luck also. The first bmp I sent to the objective did have one additional ambush site fire on it as it ran to the objective. but they missed, thus exposing their location for my next assault. 

When I sent the second bmp, there still was almost two blocks I was not sure about as to if they would get fired on from those areas. Once it made it. I quickly reorganized and sent the rest of what I needed with plenty of covering units down that lane before some new enemy units appeared.

Knowing that wasting time was just asking for new enemy units to possible enter the fray and block that route.

Really, I don't feel I did anything too unusual in all this, I don't play overly aggressive, but I also knew the situation required taking advantage of any chances I had as fast as possible to benefit from the momentary gains.

Playing H2H, you need to develop that mentality, you want to get momentum and not allow a defender time to recover or be able to react to your moves. So having units ready to exploit successes is a needed trait that likely paid off for me in this scenario.

 

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On 1/31/2019 at 2:14 AM, slysniper said:

Ok, let see how good my memory is.

First, in general I actually probed every avenue of approach, seeing if I felt any was weaker than another as to using it.

(but how do you probe, with only a small amount of infantry that you are not to lose, tanks that are at risk as much as anything else to ambushes in such fighting and bmp's that are somewhat weak in general.)

it means you need overwhelming firepower the second something exposes itself. So I had a couple of bmp's over watching a few approaches while the rest of the force focused on two approaches at a time I was probing at the same time. I used the bmp's to do these probes. (I lost the two bmp's and the two tanks during these early stages of probing, the tanks were over watching the bmp's as they moved forward.)

I actually liked the far right approach before starting the battle, thinking that would give me a little open space and a little better view at targets with a little range. needless to say, I found that very well covered and choose to look elsewhere.

The far left I left off the table because of the briefing plus of the map edge, I hate using the edge as it seems a unfair advantage on this map, so I had a few units watch it and that was it.

So that left the two middle approaches. I found both difficult, but the red approach was a little better favorable terrain as to me being able to put fire on it if anything exposed itself to my lines. So it became the approach.

Lost a bmp very quickly to it, But knowing most of the ambushes were set to attack units as they pass, decided I just needed to close with and overwhelm them locations because such locations could not see me coming either. So with aggressive assaults I removed them. I did have a little luck also. The first bmp I sent to the objective did have one additional ambush site fire on it as it ran to the objective. but they missed, thus exposing their location for my next assault. 

When I sent the second bmp, there still was almost two blocks I was not sure about as to if they would get fired on from those areas. Once it made it. I quickly reorganized and sent the rest of what I needed with plenty of covering units down that lane before some new enemy units appeared.

Knowing that wasting time was just asking for new enemy units to possible enter the fray and block that route.

Really, I don't feel I did anything too unusual in all this, I don't play overly aggressive, but I also knew the situation required taking advantage of any chances I had as fast as possible to benefit from the momentary gains.

Playing H2H, you need to develop that mentality, you want to get momentum and not allow a defender time to recover or be able to react to your moves. So having units ready to exploit successes is a needed trait that likely paid off for me in this scenario.

 

Good recall thanks 

It’s a very good and efficient use of combat recce. 

Spoilers

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Interesting you thought RHS. That was my favoured approach when testing and it proved to be easy so I rejigged the defence to make it tougher. There is a route through but not as obvious and I found it’s slow. 

The LHS good call. It’s well seeded by IEDs like the brief says. To try that route would end in tears. 

So you did well in uncovering the ambushes. Also good call to move fast once you had done so. There are various triggers so if you move slow gives the AI units time to realign. Careful balancing act which you nailed. 

Re time I’ll review the mission time and adjust so less ‘fat’ in it. 

Many thanks fir your breakdown of your plan. I was wondering if I’d left a gap but it was your sound tactics that won the day. Colour me impressed 

Edited by George MC

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Thanks

Well if you ever need a play tester, I am more than willing to get my hands on new stuff that I get to be the first and give it a couple of run throughs and tell you what I think of the work.

I have played plenty of your work and you keep it at a good high standard.

 

Edited by slysniper

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10 hours ago, slysniper said:

Thanks

Well if you ever need a play tester, I am more than willing to get my hands on new stuff that I get to be the first and give it a couple of run throughs and tell you what I think of the work.

I have played plenty of your work and you keep it at a good high standard.

 

That's handy to know thanks - great help especially when you're a tactical Jedi! Thanks - glad you enjoy the stuff I create, always good to hear and great motivation. Ta :)

Cheery!

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I've just tweaked this to a version 2.

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-shock-force-2-2/cmsf-2-daraya-tank-raid/

I compromised on the suggested time reduction as discussed in this thread. I took 20 minutes off and increased the variable time. If players need the time it's there in the variable bit. If you think you've achieved your objectives sooner then makes it easier to decide to hit ceasefire, I think. Still, see what others think I guess.

I appreciate players come with different skill sets and play styles, but given the tactical context, you have to attack with a sense of urgency.

I 'think' cautious methodical players may find this mission tough as it requires a bold intelligent approach to have any chance of achieving your objectives before your holdouts are wiped out.

As one WWII German armoured troops pamphlet stated -"Panzer Vorwärts! Aber mit Verstand!" or "Armour Forward! But with Intelligence!" This advice I think holds very true for this scenario.

Thanks to all for the discussion above interesting reading and useful views ta.
 

Edited by George MC

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I enjoyed this scenario back in the "dark ages" of CMSF1 - IIRC SLOW moving forward inf and BMP's and tanks in a tightly coordinated formation.  The moment any enemy pops up, they get immediately cut to pieces - usually with little or no friendly losses.  The important issue was placement of all units so that they were most able to cover each other - especially the point units.

The only "issue" I recall was that the enemy tended to keep attacking through one or two chokepoints.  So long as the chokepoint was covered, it was easy to kill em in the same old way as they came in the same old way (to para Lord Wellington).  There was a long trail of enemy bodies along the exact same route by the end.  And yes, it seemed that the scenario was over before time ran out.

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42 minutes ago, Erwin said:

I enjoyed this scenario back in the "dark ages" of CMSF1 - IIRC SLOW moving forward inf and BMP's and tanks in a tightly coordinated formation.  The moment any enemy pops up, they get immediately cut to pieces - usually with little or no friendly losses.  The important issue was placement of all units so that they were most able to cover each other - especially the point units.

The only "issue" I recall was that the enemy tended to keep attacking through one or two chokepoints.  So long as the chokepoint was covered, it was easy to kill em in the same old way as they came in the same old way (to para Lord Wellington).  There was a long trail of enemy bodies along the exact same route by the end.  And yes, it seemed that the scenario was over before time ran out.

Hi Erwin

I think that tactic might still work but I re-jigged the ambushes (using triggers) so the rebels are a wee bit more coordinated. So you might, just might get a wee surprise if you try that :)

Re the chokepoints I think, if you find the right place this is still possible. It's difficult to totally eliminate this as you are subject to the vagaries of AI pathfinding. So whilst I sought to reduce this if a player is lucky they might still find the 'right' place and mow em down. Its challenging to totally eliminate this in AI plans, reduce yes, eliminate no.

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Either way. the point still stands - this is a terrific little scenario, George.  :)    You are motivating me to try it again after "Coup" is completed.  (And I normally hate replaying scenarios.)

 

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George MC,

  Yikes, what a crazy battle this one is.  I enjoyed the heck out of it.  Quite the challenge, as you are screwed if you go too fast, and you'll lose if you go too slowly.

  So, here are my observations and the course I took.

SPOILERS

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Per the briefing, I never considered the left flank (green) route.  The briefing also noted that the red route had a road block, so I didn't work that one either.

I split my forces into two groups, with equal amounts of BMPs to each, but more tank heavy on the far right (yellow) route.  The infantry stayed with the blue route group.  The FO stayed behind and the unmounted infantry did some initial scouting ahead.  I had the arty start dropping on the really high apartment buildings to the right of strongpoint 2 as soon as possible, to try and blunt any attacks on that strongpoint from the right side.  They also had the drone up as soon as possible and covering the right half of the map.

And...one of my tanks bogged and was immobilized within the first 3 minutes.  Great!!!

I left the attached infantry mounted for a while, as I moved the tanks up slowly (but not too slowly) and had the BMPs pretty close behind for covering fire.  I tried to keep the two columns moving at the same pace.  This worked for the most part, except that one column or the other had to stop and address the ambushes.  Some were pretty wicked, and my foot sloggers paid dearly by blundering into them.  I had to move BMPs and tanks in quickly to suppress and then blow the enemy up fast.  I actually found that the BMPs were very good at ripping apart the ambush positions, but I still had to have tanks leading.

Between the red and blue route I pushed three BMPs down that area, which was more of a wide alley.  I stumbled on some more ambush spots and reduced them, but at a price.  But, I managed to uncover some more enemy positions before they could fire on the blue and yellow routes.  So, I guess it was worth the casualties.

Once my columns hit the main cross road, they had to deal with a whole host of enemy troops trying to ambush them.  I had one tank immobilized in the intersection on the yellow route and another took a gun hit that left only the driver and no gun.  But, the enemy paid dearly and the cross street was now controlled.

I did a very poor job of managing the strongpoint troops.  I was so intent on working the columns that I neglected the strongpoints and left them to their own devices until things were really dire there.  Some of the strongpoint 1 survivors fled into nearby buildings so I had lost that position.  Strongpoint 2 was very much reduced but holding on.  This was close to the 1 hour left time.  I decided to take some chances at this point, and the streets were really dusted up badly from my columns blasting the enemy positions, so I started running BMPs through the dust and rushing them into the heart of strongpoint 2.  I rushed three BMPs and the tank with no gun into and around strongpoint 2, and cut up some enemy troops still near it. 

Then I started to rush more BMPs and one of the tanks past strongpoint 2 and out onto the red route to try and clear strongpoint 1.  I took some more casualties but I was finally able to retake strongpoint 1 with the breach teams.  With the time mark at 57 minutes remaining, I had to decide if I should load up the survivors and scamper back to my lines or consolidate my position and hold.  I had two tanks positioned on the yellow route to protect my right flank.  I had a boatload of BMPs and tanks around the two strongpoints.  The enemy didn't seem to be pushing forward any longer.  I chose to stay and hold.  

With a ceasefire at 57 minutes left in the game, I ended up with a Syrian Tactical Victory.  I was very pleased to have eeked that out.

This was a really cool battle.  There were so many nail-biting situations that I lost count and track of all of them.  If I had managed the strongpoints better, I might not have risked rushing the BMPs down the dust-clouded streets when I did.  But, since things were so critical there, I figured I had to take the chance. 

Lots of critical decisions are called for in this battle.  I never felt rushed by the game time, but I did feel rushed by the developments of the battle.  In that respect, George, you make the player change his plans on the fly and sometimes uncomfortable or aggressive decisions are called for.  When I saw my guys bailing out of strongpoint 1 and the guys in strongpoint 2 getting ready to run, I had to rush my columns and take extra risks.  I just couldn't leave them in the lurch - so I ordered the BMP guys to risk all.  

My stomach was already tightening up when I read the briefing, and I just knew things were going to get ugly fast.  I think you did a masterful job of having the AI triggered in such a way as to have the battle rise in pitch and then ease back a little for slight lulls in the action.  This really ratcheted up the tension level.

Clearly this is vintage George MC magic.  A wonderful battle, filled with tension and suspense, and tactical puzzles to be solved without losing too much of your troops blood in the process.  Thanks George for another amazing experience.

Heinrich505

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Hi @Heinrich505
Thanks for the brilliant and detailed AAR. Good sum up of the tactical challenge I think in this one – “you are screwed if you go too fast, and you'll lose if you go too slowly”.
Aye it does pay to read the brief. Just for ****s and giggles I’ve playtested going up the GREEN route…


The BMPs are really effective at taking out enemy units but are very fragile. Whilst the tanks are a bit sturdier but take a few more shots to KO enemy but also throw up a lot of dust etc. As in RL combining the two does mean mutual support and making the best use of the advantages of each weapon system. 


It’s too easy to leave the strongpoint troops to fend for themselves. I’m very guilty of doing that. It was a balance re their ammo loadouts as there is not that much granularity in the editor for choosing their loadouts. It’s not quite all or nothing but one setting gave them enough to fight off all comers whilst the other setting leaves them a bit ‘light’. Still, I found I have to keep a weather eye on the strongpoint troops.


Aye CMSF2 does a great job of simulating dust and smoke from combat. I’ve found that in this scenario this can be a useful effect to take advantage of, although the downside is enemy tank hunter teams can also use the cover of the dust etc to get close.


That was good going getting to everyone in that time and establishing new defensive positions. The question of whether to stay or withdraw does really depend on how effective your initial attack is. I’ve several AI triggers in operation at this juncture so if you have conducted an effective attack and set-up effective overwatch then you are in a ‘good place’! Which with a tactical victory you were.


I’m really pleased you enjoyed it. Also good to hear (as per other feedback) that the reduced time limit has not involved an increased pressure to rush. As I’d hoped the pressure to move fast comes from the tactical situation, not the clock.


Also good to hear the AI triggers work – I was looking to recreate an enemy force reacting to a situation and by the sounds of things that does appear to have worked, with the ebbing and rising “battle rhythm” (just seen that buzz phrase on twitter!).


Thanks for your kind words about this – although I think that the new CMSF2 goes a large way to providing a very different and immersive experience than the original did (although when I first became involved in CMSF it was a bit of a wow experience, especially when working with the beta’s and coming from CMX1 and WWII!).


Cheers for the positive feedback and kind words – really appreciated ta.
Cheery!
 

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On 1/31/2019 at 12:54 AM, George MC said:

Thank you :)

Here ya go https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wwyy06b5lsfoqgo/AACOnCYJbSPAwdRzId5uD1R_a?dl=0 It's not on CMMODS right now. If @LongLeftFlank is agreeable I'm happy to upload to CMMODs for him? Could be it's on his own to do list so I'd rather wait for the get-go from his good self.

Cheery!

Sorry, missed this. In spite of my semi-regular Forum participation, my actual gaming is near zero for work reasons. Please go ahead and upload any of my works to GaJ's site as you like; happy any of this stuff is getting use. Cheers, LLF

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17 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Sorry, missed this. In spite of my semi-regular Forum participation, my actual gaming is near zero for work reasons. Please go ahead and upload any of my works to GaJ's site as you like; happy any of this stuff is getting use. Cheers, LLF

Nae worries mate - more than familiar with the work/game time balance demands! That's very kind of you thank you. I'll upload it to CMMODS with full accreditation of course to your good self. It's a brill mod BTW :)

Thanks again!

Cheery!

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6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Just downloaded this one, ashamed to say I've not played the original, but I've seen enough GoPro footage of the real thing to be quite intimidated by the whole premise!  :unsure:

I think you'll find it an interesting tactical workout then. It's interesting to see why they use these tactics and how surprisingly effective they can be.

Or not if...

It's a fine balancing act! 🤐

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