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Chibot Mk IX

Operating your IFV/APC under the threat of Javelin

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Looking for some tips from other Russian player.  

How to operate your IFV/APC safely ,  transport and disembark , and provide fire support? 

 

For the fire support part I can think about one.  

Find some place that do not have LOS with front line. Park at the space behind the building , or behind reverse slope. Then move out of the cover at a full speed , stop at a point with LOS to front line,  pause 10-15 seconds and do Area Fire, then reverse back.  In WeGo game this requires a combination of different commands. But you need to do extra work to make sure they survive under the threat of Javelin

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I don't play Russian side often, but speaking from the blue side using Javs a lot that is a tight one.  A Jav takes 15 seconds to launch once it starts aiming.  If you leave cover, move to a spot exposed and wait 15 seconds you'll likely not make it back.  Doing a shorter pause likely means you'll have to just area fire blind as you'll not have much time to spot anything.  I think better is to look for keyhole locations to fire from where the odds of a Jav team spotting you are going to be far less.  Firing from wooded areas may help. I have had more than a few Javs get caught that way.

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What Sburke said.

 

Always unload/load behind cover/concealment, and let the ground-pounders use their own legs to get onto the front line and into contact. Also try to ensure that the transport route is also out of LOS of potential enemy OPs, and consider smoke for areas they may be exposed. or even reconsider if it is really worth the risk of exposing your battle-taxi and passengers to enemy fire at these locations

 

For fire support, spend the time to look for keyhole positions , or set back inside woods with a narrow exposure. Also consider defilade positions.

 

Always have them behind a screen of infantry when providing fire support, but still ensuring their exposure is very restricted/limited.

Edited by gnarly

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3 hours ago, sburke said:

Firing from wooded areas may help. I have had more than a few Javs get caught that way.

Somewhat along the same lines, I fired a precision mission at an APC/IFV that was hiding under some trees, and the shell was detonated by a tree. After that I fired all three tubes at it on the theory that one way or another that would have a chance to blast through the cover and nail the b******d. And it worked!

:)

Michael

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Yep, all good advice. Stay under trees when you can. Area fire and withdraw. Even then use key whole positions. Honestly the Russian BMPs and BTRs have such poor viability that I typically use them in an area fire roll all the time. If they spot an actual target on their own fine but my orders are for fire support directed by the Platoon leader pretty much all the time.

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As everyone said. Keyhole them and use them way further back than you.d use blue tanks. On the attack you just have to suffer losses basically.  Thats when its good to sometimes lead with crappier tanks - or bring bmps up first and force the javelin ammo to get used on them. A US player can be forced into expending those missiles.

Also personally for me especially in BS it seems if a MAGA supporter in America farts 2 T90s blow up. So as Redfor I *always* disembark infantry unless its such a unique situation its not worth discussing; and I load as much stuff as human possible onto the squads so its not lost when the vehicles explode.  You should try to give all squads on either side IME another 1k of 5.56 or 5.45; and another 500 or 1k of 7.62.

I also distribute RPG ammo ajd RPGs.

For Blufor this is very important as well tbh - you REALLY should always have a good grasp on whats rare or valuable or runs out quick.

So for example theres RPG29s in a vehicle? Those are awesome thats a priority to get out. A javelin or javelin missiles? Too valuable to risk. 5.56 ammo? Important but not world ending.

Its similar to the German 7.92 Kurz ammo foe the Stg44. The squads dont come with a lot and its rare on vehicles. So when you get one with it you'd better snap it up - or in WW2 games I think its madness with half tracks to not get the extra schreck or zook or fausts out.

 

Just an opinion

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5 hours ago, Sublime said:

So for example theres RPG29s in a vehicle? Those are awesome thats a priority to get out. A javelin or javelin missiles? Too valuable to risk. 5.56 ammo? Important but not world ending.

Gamewise that makes sense.  But we discussed elsewhere what is a realistic load out (if one cares about realism of course) and it seemed that while 210 rounds is normal loadout, troops would load up maybe 400 rounds total/man plus extra if there is a MG in the squad plus a couple ATR's.  More than that load should affect mobility a lot more than what we experience in the game.

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Absolutely and if it really affected my mobility I wouldnt do it. I take it asa trade ofc in my favor for the countless things im disadvantaged by because of the inherent game system.its also not ridiculously excessive they may have a **** ton of ammo but in any case i have anyone with a squad with 4k rnds and missiles i guarantee you theyll be dead or have A LOT of that ammo off within carrying it 350m which isnt that crazy.

On a regular patrol loadout? Yes. In scenarios like that or somethibg.. But if your qb or scenario has you understanding youre about to attack I dont think its unusual (and Ive read many accts of troops festooning themselves with belts of mg ammo, whether mg42 or m60, or sticking grenades all over themselves , etc. This would never be doable long distances but if youre planning to use this stuff almost for sure soon and in the next kilometer at most its not really that excessive.

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19 hours ago, Sublime said:

countless things im disadvantaged by because of the inherent game system

lol - my sense is that it's the AI that needs the help.  It can't resupply for one.

Edited by Erwin

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In CMSF2 you can purchase BM-21 Grad MLRS. CMBS kind'a got short-changed on artillery rockets. Pesky Javelin teams can't shoot at you if they first die under heavy artillery bombardment! Russian army was known for its artillery back when the Soviet union was at its peak. After playing CM:Afghanistan I joked that the best tactical use for a Russian infantry squad is to move forward and occupy ground over the charred bodies of the already-fallen enemy.

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You are not going to accomplish much until you can spot and destroy enemy javelin teams. So if I am in any type of attack mode it generally requires sacrificing something to spot them.

But the practice for me is. non-mounted infantry moves up first, once in awhile they get lucky and spot a few of them. 

Normally remove with arty assets if possible, if not. massed firepower moves up into place quickly and area fire til they die, limiting risk with key hole positioning a major plus if possible.

then sending single stripped armored units as scouts and sacrificial lambs to expose any unspotted jav.teams. (units unloaded and not loaded with supplies)

As mentioned, losing a few low end units to expose those jav. teams is worth it. before risking any goods assets.

(keep in mind playing a smart player, this will not always work.) I know I will restrict my jav teams from firing on lead units, thus hoping my opponent thinks he has found a safe route, thus maybe moving high valued units out thinking it is safe. But vs the AI you never need to worry about that.

 

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Analyze the ground, your approach avenues and the opposing side LOS of them, together with planned area fire by both direct (your units, especially vehicles) and indirect fire support and use lots of smoke when you maneuver. Remember that the javelin operator still needs a direct line of sight in order to acquire your IFV\APC, which is kind of a drawback. I know that  CMSF has the spike MR and that one is capable of hitting targets while the launcher and the crew are behind cover themselves, using the optical sensor on the missile as a manner of semi-loitering munition... But I'm pretty sure the game does not simulate that capability

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On 1/10/2019 at 7:31 PM, Sublime said:

You should try to give all squads on either side IME another 1k of 5.56 or 5.45; and another 500 or 1k of 7.62. 

As a side note, RUS squad has just one Pecheneg but it uses more 7.62 than the rest of the squad burns through 5.45. So the ratio should be reversed and even more so if the squad has UGLs or expects longer engagement ranges. I'm talking CMBS not RL here.

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Yes both US and Russian squads overwhelmongly use their 5.45 or 5.56 quickly and its very important to grab enough not to run out. I guess its also a habit from using Wehrmacht troops where if that Mg42 goes silent the squad is at like 1/4 firepower.

I had seeing my LMGs run out of ammo amd because everyone has assault rifles IME its always easier to find egular assault rifle ammo somewhere anywhere where say STG ammo in the WW2 titles and 7.62 is harder to just find..

This said I load my men down with everything I can. Rocket launchers UGL roads everything I can. Everyone doesnt play how I do either.

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On ‎1‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 5:11 PM, IMHO said:

As a side note, RUS squad has just one Pecheneg but it uses more 7.62 than the rest of the squad burns through 5.45. So the ratio should be reversed and even more so if the squad has UGLs or expects longer engagement ranges. I'm talking CMBS not RL here.

 

11 hours ago, Sublime said:

Yes both US and Russian squads overwhelmongly use their 5.45 or 5.56 quickly and its very important to grab enough not to run out. I guess its also a habit from using Wehrmacht troops where if that Mg42 goes silent the squad is at like 1/4 firepower.

I had seeing my LMGs run out of ammo amd because everyone has assault rifles IME its always easier to find egular assault rifle ammo somewhere anywhere where say STG ammo in the WW2 titles and 7.62 is harder to just find..

This said I load my men down with everything I can. Rocket launchers UGL roads everything I can. Everyone doesnt play how I do either.

There are plenty of 7.62x54R in the 7 men Rifle squad.

Ukraine's 7 men squad has 700rnd (1 PKM), Russian has 970rnd (1 PKP + 1 SVD).  

The 6 men squad could experience 7.62 ammo shortage much more often, Ukraine's 6 men squad has 300rnd, 420rnd in Russian squad.  So make them grab 250 or 500rnd 7.62mm is highly recommended 

On ‎1‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:31 AM, Sublime said:

I also distribute RPG ammo ajd RPGs.

I usually do the same thing here. But recently I am rethinking this . In a PBEM game and when I expect to see enemy armor, I will constantly change my exposed infantry team's position every 30s or 45s. Light load will be helpful to my game play style. 

One thing puzzle me is, why the Russian/Ukraine's grenadier could not equips RPG-22/26? It looks like those who equips with GP-25 or GP-30 are screwed. They cannot equip with RPG, cannot pickup their fallen comrade's LMG. They only have 10 rounds UGL HE, and burning the ammo fast.     BTR, MLTB and BMP don't carry 40mm VOG-25 HE.  

I hope BFC can add some 40mm HE to Russian/Ukraine AFV in next patch

 

 

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All hail the powerful 8.4kg HEAT warhead

I am in a PBEM game , scenario "Galloping Horse Downfall". This is what happened last turn.

American is retreating, I send a MTLB chasing after

qXP0Bur.png

Javelin.... Incoming!

 

 

A9KaGfB.png

A miss, but.... Ouch.

Glad both two crewman survived , they can still charge enemy with AKS-74U.

 

 

A Javelin team spotted 20 min before this happening, that location is marked with yellow arrow in the first pic.  I dropped probably 30 rounds 120mm mortar shells air burst in that area.   The blue arrow marks where this Javelin comes from. Either my opponent changed his position after he detected spotting rounds or he has another Javelin team there. 

 

Anyway, it is the time for another round of bombardment. 

 

 

Edited by Chibot Mk IX

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On 1/9/2019 at 9:09 PM, Chibot Mk IX said:

But you need to do extra work to make sure they survive under the threat of Javelin

I actually disagree with this. Yes, the javelin is a very effective anti-tank weapon. However, so was the Pak 40 in WWII, or an Abrams in hull down in the modern titles. I don't think your approach to operating in a javelin environment is much different than any other anti-tank weapons environment. The same principles apply. Cover and concealment are still your best bet, regardless of what you're up against. 

People tend to think that modern warfare requires a whole new set of tactics in order to be successful. This generally isn't the case. Weapon systems in the modern age tend to be more lethal due to their first shot accuracy, and spotting ability across the board has increased as well. The same basic rules still apply however. If the enemy javelins cannot see you, then they cannot kill you. Suppressing fire is just as effective against a modern javelin as it is against a WWII anti-tank gun. Its just now the javelin is harder to spot, and once it's fired you're likely out of luck. 

Others have touched on it, but I'll repeat because I think its worth stating again. A good fires plan goes a long way to mitigating all sorts of anti-tank threats, be it javelins, AT-14s, or guys with RPGs. As an example, I know a lot of people expressed frustrations with the "Passage to Wilcox" scenario in the SF2 demo, but from the American side. There is a battery of AT-14s that can cause some real havoc if you aren't careful. However, the briefing warns you of this threat, and even tells you roughly where they are on the map. So, as part of my overall fires plan, I made sure to dedicate a section (2 tubes) of 120mm mortars to put the suspected AT-14 position under a constant rain of fire during my initial movement phase. I did that by setting the fire mission to a long mission, but a light rate of fire. That way only 4-6 or so shells were landing a minute, thus preserving the mortar ammunition, but this was still more than enough to suppress the AT-14s and even knocked at least one of them out. The rest I was able to destroy with direct fires from my tanks and Bradleys, which didn't take any fire from the AT-14s as the gunners were too busy hugging the dirt from the mortars. 

For Red Forces, be it Russian or Syrian, a detailed and accurate fires plan is extremely important. You can suppress, destroy, or at the very least deny enemy javelin teams from setting up in advantageous positions. That can buy you time to maneuver into an advantageous position for your own forces, where you can start to bring direct fires to bear on suspected and known anti-tank positions. Easier said than done of course, but it is certainly doable. 

One last note I think is worth mentioning, using infantry as recon is very useful when facing javelins. Their handheld optics might not be as good as the ones mounted in vehicles, but they are also much easier to maneuver and conceal than vehicles are, and javelins will generally not engage them unless ordered to. Worst case scenario, you lose a recon team to a javelin, but now that's one less javelin missile you have to worry about. Best case, you are able to spot enemy anti-tank teams with your infantry and neutralize them without losing your armor. Again, easier said than done, but its quite possible. 

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I found out that javelins miss when you move your vehicles around at high speeds. So that would be my guide to operating them - don't park them around one spot and have deliberate and fast transitions between covers. 

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12 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

People tend to think that modern warfare requires a whole new set of tactics in order to be successful.

In WW2 era one could be fairly confident that the first one or two shots would miss and even then there was a reasonable chance of survival.  The fact that modern warfare has a "one-shot kills" environment demands that one has to adjust tactics.  

6 hours ago, BTR said:

javelins miss when you move your vehicles around at high speeds

Good example (at least in the game).  One has to move a lot faster now as well as be stealthier due to better enemy optics.  

12 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I think is worth mentioning, using infantry as recon is very useful when facing javelins.

In the game at least, (actually in all CM titles regardless of era) have found that one nearly always benefits from pushing inf ahead as spotters and holding back armor until you pretty much know/can guess where most of the enemy assets are - and hitting them with arty.  Only then can armor be unleashed with confidence.  

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2 hours ago, Erwin said:

In the game at least, (actually in all CM titles regardless of era) have found that one nearly always benefits from pushing inf ahead as spotters and holding back armor until you pretty much know/can guess where most of the enemy assets are - and hitting them with arty.  Only then can armor be unleashed with confidence.  

The main takeaway of @IICptMillerII post, for me, was the importance of effective fire plans in modern titles. He also reminded us that tactics haven't changed that much. You seem to concur?

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In the game it nearly always seems like a bad idea to move tanks ahead of inf no matter what.  I qualified that... But thinking about it, my experience is that in the game it is ALWAYS a bad idea.

However, am not so sure that is true in RL as one may have much longer range LOS in RL.  In the game nearly all our battles are essentially short range knife fights where you know for sure that enemy inf is lurking a couple hundred meters away (at most).

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5 hours ago, Erwin said:

 

However, am not so sure that is true in RL 

Scouting before you move is something you think doesn't occur in real life?

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

 

  In the game nearly all our battles are essentially short range knife fights

No they're not.

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23 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

I actually disagree with this. Yes, the javelin is a very effective anti-tank weapon. However, so was the Pak 40 in WWII, or an Abrams in hull down in the modern titles. I don't think your approach to operating in a javelin environment is much different than any other anti-tank weapons environment. The same principles apply. Cover and concealment are still your best bet, regardless of what you're up against. 

People tend to think that modern warfare requires a whole new set of tactics in order to be successful. This generally isn't the case. Weapon systems in the modern age tend to be more lethal due to their first shot accuracy, and spotting ability across the board has increased as well. The same basic rules still apply however. If the enemy javelins cannot see you, then they cannot kill you. Suppressing fire is just as effective against a modern javelin as it is against a WWII anti-tank gun. Its just now the javelin is harder to spot, and once it's fired you're likely out of luck. 

Others have touched on it, but I'll repeat because I think its worth stating again. A good fires plan goes a long way to mitigating all sorts of anti-tank threats, be it javelins, AT-14s, or guys with RPGs. As an example, I know a lot of people expressed frustrations with the "Passage to Wilcox" scenario in the SF2 demo, but from the American side. There is a battery of AT-14s that can cause some real havoc if you aren't careful. However, the briefing warns you of this threat, and even tells you roughly where they are on the map. So, as part of my overall fires plan, I made sure to dedicate a section (2 tubes) of 120mm mortars to put the suspected AT-14 position under a constant rain of fire during my initial movement phase. I did that by setting the fire mission to a long mission, but a light rate of fire. That way only 4-6 or so shells were landing a minute, thus preserving the mortar ammunition, but this was still more than enough to suppress the AT-14s and even knocked at least one of them out. The rest I was able to destroy with direct fires from my tanks and Bradleys, which didn't take any fire from the AT-14s as the gunners were too busy hugging the dirt from the mortars. 

For Red Forces, be it Russian or Syrian, a detailed and accurate fires plan is extremely important. You can suppress, destroy, or at the very least deny enemy javelin teams from setting up in advantageous positions. That can buy you time to maneuver into an advantageous position for your own forces, where you can start to bring direct fires to bear on suspected and known anti-tank positions. Easier said than done of course, but it is certainly doable. 

One last note I think is worth mentioning, using infantry as recon is very useful when facing javelins. Their handheld optics might not be as good as the ones mounted in vehicles, but they are also much easier to maneuver and conceal than vehicles are, and javelins will generally not engage them unless ordered to. Worst case scenario, you lose a recon team to a javelin, but now that's one less javelin missile you have to worry about. Best case, you are able to spot enemy anti-tank teams with your infantry and neutralize them without losing your armor. Again, easier said than done, but its quite possible. 

War, War never changes. 

I agree you on most of the part, but disagree with some part. 

 

23 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

People tend to think that modern warfare requires a whole new set of tactics in order to be successful. This generally isn't the case. 

When BMP-1 get into Soviets armed force service, it was designed to follow tank formation closely. However after Yom Kippur war  Soviets realized their BMP-1 are very brittle on the battlefield. So they changed their doctrine. The BMP companies must keep distance with tanks companies , preferred distance is 500m-1000m. So Tank companies lead the way, BMP companies are in "on call" position, follow behind and ready to provide support. 

This doctrine will not only keep BMPs relatively safe in nuclear warfare with tactical nuclear weapons detonate everywhere, but will also keep them safe in a 70-80s conventional warfare.  Yes, NATO has a lot of ATGM assets, but Heavy ATGM are issued to Battalion/Company level. Light ATGM M47 Dragon at platoon level may not be able to effectively stop MBT. Later the TOW 2 on M2 IFV increased a lot of firepower to the Mech inf platoon. But basically Soviet can concentrate their artillery,  use their MBT to absorb enough damage, Mech infantry in an "on call" position to provide support,  the whole formation keep moving. Javelin could change the whole situation, they are relatively light weight,  relatively cheap, easy to change fire position, hard to detect. Issued to Squad/Platoon level so it has both the quality and quantity, and they are providing same punch as a heavy TOW 2

Glad the cold war didn't turn hot. And cold war ended before Javelin get into service.   So we don't know what Soviets will do to adapt to this new threat (maybe their solution is very simple: use tactical nukes and chemicals). One thing is clear, if you try to reenact this Soviet doctrine in CMBS, you will get a lot of burning T-90s.  Like you said , sending out infantry as screen is a solution, but this will cost speed, it is not fit into Soviet doctrine.  For some of the NATO screen force at the border, forcing Warsaw Pact change into an assault formation can be considered as a victory, it will disrupt Soviets schedule and slow down the enemy.

 

My point is, new high tech shining toys could force the opposite side to adapt a new tactics.  Naval and Air operation are more sensitive to this. Land warfare is less sensitive. But charging a machine gun post in a Napoleonic era column formation is a bad idea.  In modern day battlefield, mass your artillery in a Soviet WW2 style will make the enemy's counter battery mission a piece of cake. So, new weapon system/hardware has an impact on tactics

 

my 2 cents

 

 

Edited by Chibot Mk IX

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28 minutes ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

 So we don't know what Soviets will do to adapt to this new threat (maybe their solution is very simple: use tactical nukes and chemicals).

 

You mean the Russians right?  and escalating to tactical nukes for an anti armor threat you might as well not bother sending your tanks forward and just toss a few nukes as the war is gonna end shortly thereafter.

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