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Special forces supply status in Quick Battle's


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It seems to me that the available RPG ammo for Syrian forces in QB's is most of the time very limited, and similar to the amount of ammo that the editor provides when supply is selected at 'limited' or 'scarce'. 

For example: when buying a SF company in a QB almost all Special Forces squads have only 2 AT rounds for the RPG-29 launcher, no thermobaric rounds at all.
In the editor a full load gives 3 AT + 2 Therm, while an 'adequate load' gives 2AT + 2 Therm. Only at 'Limited' or 'Scarce' there are just 2 AT rounds available. I have tried changing the 'excellent/good/fair/ etc equipment status and playing with soft factors, but that doesn't seem to make much difference.

I found this out while going through the available forces in CMSF2 QB's. I was trying to build a force with Airborne troops or Special forces, but they seem very underwhelming equipped with RPG rounds. The only force that I have found to have reasonable stable availability of RPG ammo are the republican guards with 2 AT + 2 HE rounds. 
Yes I do know that a lot of vehicles have RPG rounds available, but still I'm surprised at the standard loadouts. For the special forces I don't know anyway of aquiring extra RPG-29 rounds, so they are not as effective in QB's as they could or should be imo.

I don't think this is intentional? 

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I just checked if 2.01 brings any differences regarding, but alas not that I notice.

Am I the only one that has noticed / is 'bothered' by this? IMO the RPG is an important part of the combat power of Syrian squads. Especially for the 'special forces' and airborne forces, as they have better launchers and or rounds compared to the other branches of infantry. However, that is IF they have the rounds available. A bit of a bummer for me since I just wanted to start a QB with RED forces, and I was planning on Airborne or SF. IMO the advantage they have is for a significant part gone.

The 'unconventional' forces in CMSF2 do not share this same problem, their RPG teams do have a 'full' or 'adequate' supply status in QB's. I also compared this to CMBS, where for example the Russian BMP battalion in QB's do get the 'full' supply loadout, which is 3 AT rounds, 1 HE round and an RPG-26. 

@MarkEzra, as the QB 'GOD' 😜, maybe you know something about whether this is intentional or if I'm missing something? Thanks!

 

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Another curious thing I noticed in CMSF2 TO&E is that all squads with PKMs only seem to have 100 rounds of 7.62x54R (even with 'full' supply in the editor). The PKMs literally blow through this 100 rounds in a few seconds. 
 
Is that really the intended combat load for a PKM? I think it should be more like 1000 instead of 100. Edit: AFAIK the 'box magazine' already holds 100 rounds. The Russian BMP squads in CMBS with 1 PKP come with 900 rounds of 7.62x54R.
 

 

Edited by Lethaface
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Thanks! @sburke

I'll gladly take any blame 😁

You also got the 100rnd PKM loadout? There is also something with 5.45 ammo showing up in squads without any 5.45 weapon. I noticed it in some scenario's a while back, but thought might be some specific situation or CMSF1 legacy scenario thing. Forgot to mention it along with the PKM thing until now. To make sure I don't forget again, hereby 😇

I'll try checking if I can reproduce the 5.45 ammo thing in a QBs. 

Edited by Lethaface
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Copy.

Regarding the 5.45 ammo:

I checked in the editor that republican guard infantry squads (from the mech battalion with BMP-2) do have 225 rounds of 5.45, while they are only wielding AKMS and a PKM (with 100 rounds). I just realized another difference which I noticed before but assumed was 'normal': Syrian RPG troopers don't field any rifle besides their RPG. This shows in that they often use a pistol in a firefight. Anyway I assumed this is a intended change.

But could it be that the RPG gunner is missing his rifle and that that's supposed to be a AK-74u orso? That would explain the 5.45 ammo (and perhaps the missing RPG rounds that also got lost together with the rifle 😉. But that's just a shot in the dark.)
I checked CMBS just now, the russian BMP squads RPG troopers do also field rifles (ak-74u's). IIRC in CMSF the RPG guys also had a rifle, but I don't have CMSF1 installed.

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I'd like to avoid this becoming too many issues.  I'll focus on the ammo loadout and not weapons equipping.  I have noticed a fair amount of pistol use in CMSF that might be something else entirely.  I am sure as things get delved into there will be more issues found.  It is easier to handle them though if broken down as opposed to a lump sum of issues.

 

Okay ammo loadout issue posted.  If you want to compile info on weapons possession I can post that as a new item. I did link to this thread so additional items might be caught, but I would not count on that if the thread get too long.

Edited by sburke
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34 minutes ago, sburke said:

I'd like to avoid this becoming too many issues.  I'll focus on the ammo loadout and not weapons equipping.  I have noticed a fair amount of pistol use in CMSF that might be something else entirely.  I am sure as things get delved into there will be more issues found.  It is easier to handle them though if broken down as opposed to a lump sum of issues.

 

Okay ammo loadout issue posted.  If you want to compile info on weapons possession I can post that as a new item. I did link to this thread so additional items might be caught, but I would not count on that if the thread get too long.

Ok good point not cluttering everything up ;-).

I'll leave in the screens as it makes the difference between CMSF2 and CMBS obvious. For all I know the RPG gunners without rifle/smg is an intended change, so I'll leave it at this. I don't want to burden you with more mantis work, you think it is intended and or worth reporting? Further checking is (indeed) probably better done by someone that knows what's intended and with better tools for the matter. 

Cheers for filing the tickets!

Edited by Lethaface
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1 hour ago, MarkEzra said:

Sorry Wrong God.  Steve is TOE God... I just do the maps

Sorry to disturb the wrong Gods! 😉

To summarize my findings regarding ammo the availability issue :

RPG ammo in QB's:

Syrian SF: supply status = 'limited' (2 AT rounds).
I think I have seen maybe one or two squads with more rounds while buying SF companies many times (20+).

Airborne: supply status = 'scarce' (1 AT rounds)
Saw a bit more variation, but I was buying battalions at a time while fiddling with soft factors.

Rep. Guards mech battalion: average supply status: 'adequate' (2 AT rounds, 2 HE rounds)
So currently the best pick for a QB it seems.

Reserve Infantry battalion: average supply status: 1 AT round

Mech infantry battalion (bmp): average supply status: 2 AT rounds 
might be 1 also, not sure.


Unconventional:

Fighter Command AT- squad with RPG-29: 'full supply' (3 AT, 2 THERM)
Only checked a couple of these

 

Squads with PKM ammo

As far as I can tell every squad with a PKM in the game (command squad, (mech/SF/airborne/reserve) infantry squad) has only 100 rounds of 7.62x54R. Not only in QB's. This seems 'unfair' for the poor Syrians. ;-).

 

5.45 ammo in squads without 5.45 weapon

Some squads seem to have 225 rounds of 5.45 without any weapon that fires those. I have at least confirmed the republican guards mech battalion BMP inf squads to have 225 rounds of 5.45. 

Edited by Lethaface
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  • 5 years later...

This is definitely still an issue present in the game, I am seeing the same issues.

In the editor, the loadouts are fine with the correct amount of ammo (4+ rounds), however, in quick battles, there seems to be some sort of bug that severely limits the amount of RPG rounds carried most of the time, Syrian Special forces and Airborne tend to just have 1 standard round for their RPGs which is a huge nerf to their already limited capabilities.

Occasionally, some special forces and airborne squads might mysteriously come properly equipped with the default ~4 rounds or so including specialized rounds like Tandem, thermobaric and frag. One time, after randomly swapping between the RPG-7 and RPG-16 a bunch of times in the quick battle force selector, I somehow managed to get all the squads equipped with their intended loadout of RPG rounds similar to what they have in the editor. I could not replicate it though despite repeatedly trying to see if I could find a number of swaps to reproduce the results. At best, I got maybe one squad per platoon with the proper amount of ammunition. I have also encountered a trend where restarting the game would lead to a slightly higher chance of some squads having a proper ammunition loadout, while not restarting would almost guarantee that soldiers in any new quick battles would only have 1 basic RPG round.

I am very sure that it is a bug, the loadout of 4+ rounds is default in the editor, while it appears extremely inconsistently in quick battle. I do not believe it is an adjustment specifically for quick battle due to balance concerns, as during testing I was able to somehow equip every Airborne Infantry squad with the correct default amount of ammunition of 4+ rounds as seen in the editor, how ever unfortunately I was not able to replicate the result.

Perhaps @BFCElvis can add it to the list of issues for the team to take a look at after they get Engine 5 sorted out?

PS: I can also confirm that Syrian PKMs in squads only have 100 rounds, not sure if that's intended or a bug, but feels a little odd.

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I have done a little more testing and it seems that the specific issue is that Syrian units in quick battles seem to default to "limited" supply status with occasional slight variation. Which isn't too bad for most units, for example, units equipped with the RPG-7V1 have two PG-7VL rounds at limited supply, which is still workable. However, units equipped with the RPG-7D3 go from multiple rounds including tandem PG-7VR, thermobaric TBG-7V and fragmentation OG-7V at "adequate" supply levels down to just one singular PG-7VL round at "limited" supply levels, which is a significantly larger decrease in availability of rounds and thus corresponding decrease in firepower in quick battles.

 

So the specific issue is that units equipped with the RPG-7D3 are disproportionately affected by the "limited" supply status and go from having multiple rounds of various types down to just one. A possible solution would be to tweak the availability of rounds for each level of supply status to allow for a more gradual decrease of capability, perhaps at "limited" level troops could have the same number of RPG rounds, but fewer of the rarer thermobaric or tandem rounds, while at "scarce" they could have fewer rounds overall, perhaps 2 or 3. I believe that having a singular PG-7VL round for the entire squad (the current situation at "limited" supply status) is too severe of a penalty and should be adjusted to only occur at "severe" supply levels.

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