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2 minutes ago, sburke said:

So make one. 

Maybe I will! Unless someone else had already made one. A short terrain guide would be very useful for these games. Like in Fortress Italy everyone should know to never, ever drive into those vineyards. Yet you wouldn't know that until you end up losing an entire tank platoon by driving into one. That would cause a lot of frustration if you didn't save your game.

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9 minutes ago, Bozowans said:

Maybe I will! Unless someone else had already made one. A short terrain guide would be very useful for these games. Like in Fortress Italy everyone should know to never, ever drive into those vineyards. Yet you wouldn't know that until you end up losing an entire tank platoon by driving into one. That would cause a lot of frustration if you didn't save your game.

LOL Nope I have never done that... nope.. never..... urrr   

Yeah I avoid those like the plague.  Even foot movement can get wonky

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I do wonder how often players these days go into the editor to play. You only see a few people (a.k.a. tpr) doing 'test scenarios' to test theories anymore. You certainly don't see many players excitedly uploading a new scenario they just built for everyone to try. Which is a shame. The editor is your playground.  Here's a screenshot of a scenario map I threw together just last night after supper (no, really). If you're worried that opponents will take unfair advantage of you because of their better knowledge of terrain, I'd bet most players wouldn't have a clue which terrain type was under feet on this particular map ^_^

Unsure terrain.jpg

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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

I do wonder how often players these days go into the editor to play. You only see a few people (a.k.a. tpr) doing 'test scenarios' to test theories anymore. You certainly don't see many players excitedly uploading a new scenario they just built for everyone to try. Which is a shame. The editor is your playground.  Here's a screenshot of a scenario map I threw together just last night after supper (no, really). If you're worried that opponents will take unfair advantage of you because of their better knowledge of terrain, I'd bet most players wouldn't have a clue which terrain type was under feet on this particular map ^_^

Unsure terrain.jpg

That right there is beautiful!

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I built this little map tonight after supper as well. It is the field beside my house shown worked on the left and then they way it looked this spring as a lush field of hay on the right. The farm has a sand ridge, several wet holes and about 4 different soil types in the 25 acres, in game 150 meters by 600 meters. The view here is from the west looking east. The first time I worked this field, I assumed it was all dry and good to go because the east portion of the field was fit. The field was covered with corn stubble after a near record harvest so there were no areas of the field that had drowned out and were without plant material, a typical giveaway of a wet hole. At the Northwest edge of the field, the sand ridge was dry but not the little hollow between the sand and the pond. The disc I was pulling got bogged down in the wet ground and I almost got the tractor stuck. Fortunately, I was able to get out without assistance but made a big mess. With the ground worked, it is fairly visible, with a full growth of hay... good luck finding it if you didn't know it was there. Can you even see the wet hole in the field on the right? I was travelling at 4.5-5 mph when I noticed the problem and still was lucky to stop in time. If you were in tank, cruising at 15 mph+ and hit that wet hole, for sure bogging is an issue.

For my two cents, I think the game give you all the details an actual trooper would have. Look at the ground conditions in the game, and then recognise any ground other paved surfaces has a chance of bogging if conditions are damp or worse. Make an effort to stick to the higher ground and ground with some sort of vegetative cover. The hay field on the right will have a reduced chance of bogging due to the root structure of the plants. But if the conditions are wet or muddy, that won't make a big difference. Remember, crew experience goes a long way to preventing bogging. Just like at work, all the new inexperienced guys seem to find the wet holes....

S05G6gF.jpg

 

Here is a link to the file if you wish to check out the terrain types used.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ftkpyl7j8sgbbb/Terrian Example.btt?dl=0

I would also like to add, I hope Battlefront seriously considers adding another ground condition to the game for all the upcoming modules, and that is thawing. At work today we were trying to plough some of our last soybean stubble. It has been a wet fall/early winter and we have a couple fields left to go. This morning there was a good frost in the ground and the first few hours went real well. Around 10 am the sun came out strong and started to melt the frost. We broke a chisel plough tooth and it took half an hour to fix it up. In the time we were fixing the chisel plough, the ground became to soft to continue. The reading I have been doing the last few years about the Canadians fighting in Holland, this same thing happened to them. The tanks could support them for the start of the day but as the sun warmed things up, the tanks bogged and had to be left behind. Attacks would falter and need to be tried again the next morning when the ground was frozen enough again. I would love to see the same kind of thing happen in game. Start the battle and vehicles can drive just about anywhere, but as the fight drags on more and more will be lost to bogging. It would be a great way to add a time element to the battle as a reward for those who move quickly and it would hinder those who take too long. I know the game already models this with regards to rain, so I would hope it would be easy to implement with frost.

 

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14 hours ago, Mord said:

I am gonna do the same thing I did a few years back when this argument came up. Here's a pic. Now, I challenge anyone to tell me how the UI is supposed to explain this terrain in a simple picture or label that noobs (or anyone else for that matter) will completely understand.

 

hMG6cYs.jpg

 

There's a HUGE difference between the terrain in CMX2 and CMX1. The combination possibilities are massive.

So, for anyone keeping count, that's a red dirt tile, with half a house in the action spot, a low wall, two trees, a shed, some brush, and an extra tall grass and weed tile bleeding into it. There's no label that will fit. "Red dirt" doesn't cut it, there's a house and trees and a wall. "Red dirt with house" doesn't fit, there's trees and a wall. Nor does "red dirt with trees", etc. etc. Now multiply this ONE tile (with this particular combination of objects) by the twenty-three other ground tiles that could realistically replace "red dirt". That's twenty-four combinations just for this one picture. BUT that's only a one story house. That's only two trees. What about a two story house? What about three trees? Or one tree? Or bushes instead of trees? Or bushes instead of trees with a tall wall? See where I am going here? The only way it flies (without going crazy with descriptions) is if the tile is a completely plain version of itself; red dirt with nothing else, tall grass with nothing else. Other than that, WTF?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBIUKPeq4Y0

 

Mordest Gump.

Too lazy to put brush on there as well? Disappointed just doesn't cover how I'm feeling right now … 😏

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10 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Too lazy to put brush on there as well? Disappointed just doesn't cover how I'm feeling right now … 😏

Ha HA!

"So, for anyone keeping count, that's a red dirt tile, with half a house in the action spot, a low wall, two trees, a shed, some brush, and an extra tall grass and weed tile bleeding into it."

You can see some just to the right of the shed and in the background.

I'll take me apology in triplicate!

 

Mord.

P.S. But what I did forget to add to the mix was the ground condition settings.

 

Edited by Mord
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1 hour ago, Mord said:

Ha HA!

"So, for anyone keeping count, that's a red dirt tile, with half a house in the action spot, a low wall, two trees, a shed, some brush, and an extra tall grass and weed tile bleeding into it."

You can see some just to the right of the shed and in the background.

I'll take me apology in triplicate!

 

Mord.

P.S. But what I did forget to add to the mix was the ground condition settings.

 

Ah - missed it, my bad, I was too irritated by the spelling of boundary to concentrate properly. Apology in triplicate to follow once you do your lines: I must spell boundary with an 'a'. Just 50 of those as I'm feeling benevolent … or we could call it quits and let you get on with some modding and me to crank scenarios out - I know which I'd prefer my friend ;)

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11 hours ago, Bozowans said:

And for those of you talking about how there a billion different variations of a terrain tile because sometimes there can be stuff on top of it, okay I get that. That's not what I'm talking about though. All I want to know is what the underlying terrain texture is supposed to be. That's it.

Well there ya go. I thought you *were* talking about having the manual describe all the combinations or the game UI showing you all the detail of what is under foot. So, no it would not be bad for there to be a set of pictures identifying what each ground type was. Honestly though, I am not sure it really would change much.

 

19 hours ago, Mord said:

I am gonna do the same thing I did a few years back when this argument came up. Here's a pic. Now, I challenge anyone to tell me how the UI is supposed to explain this terrain in a simple picture or label that noobs (or anyone else for that matter) will completely understand.

 

hMG6cYs.jpg

Actually I would argue that the UI does do a good job - you can look the environment in game and see that there is a house a shed a wall and trees on some kind of dirt with grass.

Mission accomplished the game has show the player everything they need to know about the terrain at that location. Exactly what a soldier walking up to that house would have. Seems good to me. :D

Edited by IanL
added smillie
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BTW. Great map, Mikey. When I first scrolled down the page I thought that was a blurry photograph of a real place that you were gonna tell us you used as a guide for making real life terrain.

 

Mord

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Hmmm ... No MikeyD answer ...

In the editor preview crop no. 6 is the highest crop. IMHO crop 6 looks more like Linum than Lavanda.... the height of both is between 70-120 - Lavanda is more 100 cm max.

Crop 2 and 4  are Oat or Rye and Wheat ( it's hard to tell because of  the game resolution ), but height of Wheat is aprox 100 - 150 cm. So crop 4 is higher than crop 6, but not in the game ( correct me if I'm wrong )

OK, I'm nitpicking ... but with the game which counts every bullet  ... 10 cm or 50 cm counts in RL.. ;)

Just my 2c ..

 

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42 minutes ago, Ales Dvorak said:

Hmmm ... No MikeyD answer ...

In the editor preview crop no. 6 is the highest crop. IMHO crop 6 looks more like Linum than Lavanda.... the height of both is between 70-120 - Lavanda is more 100 cm max.

Crop 2 and 4  are Oat or Rye and Wheat ( it's hard to tell because of  the game resolution ), but height of Wheat is aprox 100 - 150 cm. So crop 4 is higher than crop 6, but not in the game ( correct me if I'm wrong )

OK, I'm nitpicking ... but with the game which counts every bullet  ... 10 cm or 50 cm counts in RL.. ;)

Just my 2c ..

 

Depending on the season of course.

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27 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Depending on the season of course.

Sure in RL, but in the game crop no6 looks the same from June to September (CMBN), also crop 2 and 4  ..So there is no difference in height..  In the end of September (RL) wheat field won't even exist ... In RL max diff. would have corn field..

Yes,  in winter time (RL) is hard to say that any of this plants have height .. ;)

Edited by Ales Dvorak
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Man, those are some super cool maps you guys posted.

 

I'm looking at Heirloom's "farm" in the scenario editor and I don't see how you can easily figure out what each tile is. I guess you have to compare each tile aginst the pics on the left and sort of guess. I mean some aren't so hard to figure out, but is it asking too much to just hover or right-click or something so it tells you what it is definitively?

And, getting back to what I started with, even if I figure out it's "Grass Y",  what the heck does that mean?

It would also seem logical that the troops might have an elevation map with the HQ.  Yes, you can go to the scenario editor which is not really an elevation map because it's meant for building a map, not helping out the troops.

Look, I love playing the game but I don't have the time to dedicate to figuring this stuff out. I want to get in, blow some stuff up or plan an infantry attack, or whatever and not spend my time going in and out of an editor which isn't all that useful and is slow to do and breaks up the flow of the game.

I think it's safe to say that the game is great but not perfect and could still use some UI improvements that help, especially, the newbie or the "once in awhile" player.

I would suggest that what is out there now is less than optimal.

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3 hours ago, joethejet said:

Man, those are some super cool maps you guys posted.

 

I'm looking at Heirloom's "farm" in the scenario editor and I don't see how you can easily figure out what each tile is. I guess you have to compare each tile aginst the pics on the left and sort of guess. I mean some aren't so hard to figure out, but is it asking too much to just hover or right-click or something so it tells you what it is definitively?

And, getting back to what I started with, even if I figure out it's "Grass Y",  what the heck does that mean?

It would also seem logical that the troops might have an elevation map with the HQ.  Yes, you can go to the scenario editor which is not really an elevation map because it's meant for building a map, not helping out the troops.

Look, I love playing the game but I don't have the time to dedicate to figuring this stuff out. I want to get in, blow some stuff up or plan an infantry attack, or whatever and not spend my time going in and out of an editor which isn't all that useful and is slow to do and breaks up the flow of the game.

I think it's safe to say that the game is great but not perfect and could still use some UI improvements that help, especially, the newbie or the "once in awhile" player.

I would suggest that what is out there now is less than optimal.

Ok I'll meet you half way, what is out there is less than optimal and I think the manual could probably do with a little more expansive explanation of the various terrain types.

As others have said, terrain pretty much behaves as you would expect it to in real life so if you wouldn't want to walk or drive over it in real life, it will probably present the same risks in CM. For instance I've never thought to question what 'Grass Y' is because to me it is grass that is yellow in colour.

If you imagine walking down the pavement/sidewalk and you see something brown - take a closer look at it. If its dogsh1t don't stand in it, if its anything else it is probably safe to stand on. Same as CM, if the tile is brown, decide whether it is mud or not and if it is, try and avoid it. Fords and streams are also areas which should be avoided unless absolutely necessary for the same reasons that you would avoid driving over them in real life. If you don't need to drive through hedges and fences then don't because you pick up minor damage to your vehicle, as you would in real life. Off the top of my head, pretty much everything else is good to go or, if not, poses negligible chance of bogging unless of course the underlying conditions in the scenario are wet and it is raining. 

I really wouldn't stress that much about it, if you do then the only logical outcome of this is that you will find yourself plotting unit moves from action spot to adjacent action spot so as to remove any possibility of the Tac AI making a unit cross terrain that you're not sure about and that will soon end up being very tedious indeed. Herein lies a top tip though, it is worth making the effort to plot precise moves in areas where terrain is difficult or you think that the AI will do something crazy in its pathfinding.

I hope this helps and I'm sure you'll get the hang of it with a couple more games under your belt, remember that most of us are still trying to master the challenge that CM presents after years of play because it is like chess, easy to learn the mechanics but hard to master.

What is guaranteed every time you play is that one of your best/heaviest armoured/best gunned vehicles will bog and immobilise within the first ten minutes of the game, with a full ammunition load at a point on the map where it can have absolutely no effect on the battle. This of course is Murphy's Law of Combat (Mission).

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11 hours ago, Combatintman said:

...it is worth making the effort to plot precise moves in areas where terrain is difficult or you think that the AI will do something crazy in its pathfinding.

Reminds me of a game I played I played in FI shortly after it came out. I had a situation when I needed to get a platoon of tanks from one corner of the map to another one and the choices were between one route where they would get shot at or over some very inhospitable terrain. The problem was compounded by walls, which seem to be all over the map in FI and definitely limit vehicular movement. So I chose to run my tanks up the side of a very rocky hill and around the top of a gully on a very narrow and tricky path. I plotted very carefully and ran them at Slow speed and everything turned out all right, but I have to tell you I was holding my breath in a couple of places.

Michael

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20 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Ok I'll meet you half way, what is out there is less than optimal and I think the manual could probably do with a little more expansive explanation of the various terrain types.

As others have said, terrain pretty much behaves as you would expect it to in real life so if you wouldn't want to walk or drive over it in real life, it will probably present the same risks in CM. For instance I've never thought to question what 'Grass Y' is because to me it is grass that is yellow in colour.

If you imagine walking down the pavement/sidewalk and you see something brown - take a closer look at it. If its dogsh1t don't stand in it, if its anything else it is probably safe to stand on. Same as CM, if the tile is brown, decide whether it is mud or not and if it is, try and avoid it. Fords and streams are also areas which should be avoided unless absolutely necessary for the same reasons that you would avoid driving over them in real life. If you don't need to drive through hedges and fences then don't because you pick up minor damage to your vehicle, as you would in real life. Off the top of my head, pretty much everything else is good to go or, if not, poses negligible chance of bogging unless of course the underlying conditions in the scenario are wet and it is raining. 

I really wouldn't stress that much about it, if you do then the only logical outcome of this is that you will find yourself plotting unit moves from action spot to adjacent action spot so as to remove any possibility of the Tac AI making a unit cross terrain that you're not sure about and that will soon end up being very tedious indeed. Herein lies a top tip though, it is worth making the effort to plot precise moves in areas where terrain is difficult or you think that the AI will do something crazy in its pathfinding.

I hope this helps and I'm sure you'll get the hang of it with a couple more games under your belt, remember that most of us are still trying to master the challenge that CM presents after years of play because it is like chess, easy to learn the mechanics but hard to master.

What is guaranteed every time you play is that one of your best/heaviest armoured/best gunned vehicles will bog and immobilise within the first ten minutes of the game, with a full ammunition load at a point on the map where it can have absolutely no effect on the battle. This of course is Murphy's Law of Combat (Mission).

Cool, I'll meet you half-way for sure!

Oh, sure, when I figure out what the terrain is I can more or less guess at what kind effects it has, but I'm guessing. Also, in a scenario set at day break or night fall, it's *really* hard to tell what you're looking at.

 

So, there are lots of different reasons for wanting to know, Cover/Concealmentm Bogging, effect on infantry movement, effect on artillery blast. I'm certainly not planning tile by tile and, most of the time you have multiple tiles of the same type contiguous anyway. At least in my experience.

 

Never thought that the Y in "Grass Y" stands for yellow!  LOL. Duh.

Interesting stuff guys. Didn't think my innocent question would spur so much conversation, but it's cool and educational for me. Thanks. :)

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3 hours ago, joethejet said:

Cool, I'll meet you half-way for sure!

Oh, sure, when I figure out what the terrain is I can more or less guess at what kind effects it has, but I'm guessing. Also, in a scenario set at day break or night fall, it's *really* hard to tell what you're looking at.

 

So, there are lots of different reasons for wanting to know, Cover/Concealmentm Bogging, effect on infantry movement, effect on artillery blast. I'm certainly not planning tile by tile and, most of the time you have multiple tiles of the same type contiguous anyway. At least in my experience.

 

Never thought that the Y in "Grass Y" stands for yellow!  LOL. Duh.

Interesting stuff guys. Didn't think my innocent question would spur so much conversation, but it's cool and educational for me. Thanks. :)

That should be the outcome of all good questions - I'm glad you've found it useful. I've been playing this game for years but I'll generally learn something new about how the game works on the forum about once a fortnight or so.

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18 hours ago, joethejet said:

Oh, sure, when I figure out what the terrain is I can more or less guess at what kind effects it has, but I'm guessing.

But that pretty accurately reflects the problems of RL soldiers and I can accept it as such. My problem is being able to recognize and differentiate some types of terrain. Like, I have no way at present to tell light woods from deep forest unless I try to run an LOS through it. I would prefer to be able to recognize it immediately on sight.

Michael

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