Balconies again? Really!

[coachjohn]

I bought sf2 figuring the idea of my men fighting in the open on balconies would be fixed. Just lost two infantries by them exposing themselves. Really this hasn't been fixed.

f there's a common I can give them let me know - maybe "hey dumbass - stay inside"

Really disappointed seeing this.

 

[coachjohn]

That's a "hey dumbass stay inside button or shortcut  Maybe pressing AH at the same time.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Balconies are indeed a royal pain in the rear, but I'll ping the excellent @MOS:96B2P because he has a cure (he's had it since CM:SF1 from what I can make out).....It's a workaround and takes some careful clicking, but it does the job. 

[MikeyD]

Balconies on buildings are like muddy terrain tiles or conscript troops. Its the scenario designer purposefully messing with you. You knew up front bad things would happen if you ran your troops up to a balconied floor, but you did it anyway.  

Edited December 24, 2018 by MikeyD

[LongLeftFlank]

Balconies can be your friend if you want to spot/shoot obliquely up a street, but if you're directly facing an enemy they indeed suck. I suspect designers should do a kindness and eliminate doorways so balconies are cosmetic only.

I always hoped for a workaround like this, but it may be a TacAI programming nightmare:

On 4/16/2017 at 10:11 PM, LongLeftFlank said:

16. Units and men stay inside buildings and don't enter balconies if their facing is <30 degrees in each direction from perpendicular to that building wall. Otherwise, they do use the balcony (i.e. to gain LOS up a street).

 

 

 

[MikeyD]

I've found that even without balconies troops on upper floors are liable to either die in place or become suppressed and crawl down to the first floor once bullets start piercing the walls. Resistance to penetration grows the larger the building gets but there's little that will stand up to 7.62 mg, and .50 cal will make Swiss cheese of any building in CMSF2 (the other titles do have the super-hardened 'Cathedral' indi buildings). The relative danger of balconies seems a bit inflated. You aren't going from absolute safety to mortal danger. Your men up on the third floor will probably die regardless.

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, coachjohn said:

I bought sf2 figuring the idea of my men fighting in the open on balconies would be fixed. Just lost two infantries by them exposing themselves. Really this hasn't been fixed.

f there's a common I can give them let me know - maybe "hey dumbass - stay inside"

Really disappointed seeing this.

 

Balconies have made me curse out loud while playing .  In most cases I just avoid rooms that have balconies.  However there was one scenario in CMSF1 (I don't remember the name.  I had a US Stryker unit) where more than 50% of the buildings had balconies.  As a result I developed the below reverse wall SOP which I update as I learn new things.   I use it anytime I want troops to stay away from one side of a room.  Especially useful for balcony avoidance and for spotters which, IMO, is about the only reason to place a team in a room with a balcony.  When the below SOP is used for a spotter I put the spotter on Hide when not actively spotting/adjusting marking rounds.  

 

1. Give team a circular Target Arc about the size of the building.

2. Slow team into the building & then to the desired floor.

3. Give desired floor waypoint a Target Arc out the reverse wall.¹

4. 2^nd turn give the team a permanent Pause³ order.

5. Give team a 32m, or smaller, 360^oTarget Arc² and consider Hide.

6. If/when ready to engage cancel Target Arc Pause & Hide.

Notes: 1)The team will have LOS out the forward wall of the building from the reverse wall.  This will also keep the team from entering a balcony on forward wall.  2)A 360^oTarget Arc is used to prevent the OpFor from approaching outside a wedge arc & does not affect observation. 3)Pause keeps team from moving to forward wall & entering balconies.

[coachjohn]

Okay I am confused by the above examples (and getting old and can’t think.)  Can you explain it slowly.

 

Still learning

[coachjohn]

Still think its kinda stinky they didn’t address this.

[Combatintman]

While I agree that balcony behaviour needs tweaking, I can understand while troops are more vulnerable on them than other parts of the building. If you work on the premise that being spotted is the start of your day going downhill then troops on balconies are always going to be spotted more easily than those that are inside the building. The walls of balconies are generally less robust than those of the building that they hang off which means that rounds are going to penetrate more easily.

Balconies therefore should be dangerous places for your troops to be which they are as things stand.

Like other players, I give them a miss whenever I can.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, coachjohn said:

Okay I am confused by the above examples (and getting old and can’t think.)  Can you explain it slowly.  

Hey coach, I had some old screenshots that went with my original test and notes.  Looks like I did the testing in CMFI.  The screenshots are included below with a re-posting of the SOP.  If anything specific is tripping you up, (Example: how do I make a 360^o Target Arc etc.) just ask.  Somebody here will have the answer.      

When the below SOP is used for a spotter I put the spotter on Hide when not actively spotting/adjusting marking rounds.  

 

1. Give team a circular Target Arc about the size of the building.

2. Slow team into the building & then to the desired floor.

3. Give desired floor waypoint a Target Arc out the reverse wall.¹

4. 2^nd turn give the team a permanent Pause³ order.

5. Give team a 32m, or smaller, 360^oTarget Arc² and consider Hide.

6. If/when ready to engage cancel Target Arc Pause & Hide.

Notes: 1)The team will have LOS out the forward wall of the building from the reverse wall.  This will also keep the team from entering a balcony on forward wall.  2)A 360^oTarget Arc is used to prevent the OpFor from approaching outside a wedge arc & does not affect observation. 3)Pause keeps team from moving to forward wall & entering balconies.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Sgt.Squarehead]

59 minutes ago, coachjohn said:

Still think its kinda stinky they didn’t address this.

Imagine the opposite were the case.....If troops refused to go out onto the balconies, people would ask why not? 

Why can't my RPG/ATGM Team go out onto the balcony, I want to shoot from there because he'll get mortared up on the roof etc. etc.

Don't get me wrong, it drives me mental too, pixeltruppen are pathologically (suicidally?) attracted to the damned things, so I avoid 'em or if I really must go there, I use @MOS:96B2P's ingenious fix.

The ultimate nightmare is internal balconies in complex structures, you can never be sure exactly which room your pixeltruppen will wind up in.....Evil scenario designers could use this to their advantage. 

PS - Something occurred to me that I've never tested.....If you throw smoke inside a complex structure does it land on the same floor as the thrower? 

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[LongLeftFlank]

Another workaround could be to introduce a capacity limit of 2 men (eg rocket or MG team)  on balconies. Those tend to be the kinds of units you want to go out there.  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

That sounds like it might be a very simple fix for the issue.....Perhaps four men would be a better limit (two AT Teams are better than one after all)? 

[Sublime]

Id forgotten all about these and when pbeming a demo scenario ( breaking the bank excellent - btw ) i got several squaddies severely wounded or KIA.d over not checking reverse sides of buildings to see if there were balconies. 

Havent really made the mistake since and it frankly can almost always be avoided. Most buildings with them also have a floor at least without one and the ground floor.. You can also go on the roofs but I wont unless its a walled roof (kind of a trade off for the heavy cathedral bldgs in other CMs)

Edited December 25, 2018 by Sublime

[Combatintman]

19 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Another workaround could be to introduce a capacity limit of 2 men (eg rocket or MG team)  on balconies. Those tend to be the kinds of units you want to go out there.  

For Health and Safety reasons presumably