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ctcharger

A question about cover

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50 minutes ago, IanL said:

Scenario and save attached...

PlanChoice.zip

Need to have a look at this in Scenario Testing Mode.....The game definitely doesn't appear to act on a plan until you click the Red Button (ie: it doesn't deploy random setup OpFor units to their painted setup zones until the button is pressed).** 

Back in a bit.  ;)

**This is based on my 'How to put an IED inside a building experimentation in CM:SF1'.....I haven't checked in the newer engine so I am now. 

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Images from testing:

Setup

W7hd6LA.jpg

Button clicked causing 'The Jump' (tanks redeployed according to chosen AI Plan):

MDihVN3.jpg

So it's still as I observed, but assuming @IanL didn't keep rolling double ones, it seems the choice of plan will always be the same, the plan is predetermined at loadup.....Will run a few multiples to confirm.  :rolleyes:

Many restarts later.....

Yup, looks like he's right.....Apologies to @ctcharger for the bum steer.  :unsure:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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6 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Yup, my first save for each new battle is always 'Battle Name - Setup'.....

I do something similar; I label the first save "[battle name] 000". I give the first turn's save after giving commands as "[battle name] 001. I generally save every turn that way so that if I want to go back and look at any turn I can.

The only downside to that system is that after that battle is finished and I want to clear all those saves out, it takes a hell of a lot of mouse clicks.

Michael

Edited by Michael Emrys
clarity

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You will notice something that has confused me in the past. I deployed the red tanks in the middle - as you can see in your first screen shot - but each AI orders had a unique setup area. During setup the red forces appear in their deployed positions even though the plan choice is locked in. As soon as you press the BRB they jump to the stop zone.

So, remember when you are testing your new AI plan, with the unique setup that should always be chosen because you turned off the other plans, that they don't assume their start position until you press the BRB. Loading the scenario over and over and checking the plans in the editor is just wasting your time :)

Edited by IanL
Word oops

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It confused us both, from opposite directions.....As I said, I knew about the 'The Jump' from IED experiments in Mosul, what I hadn't realised was that the choice of plan was fixed prior to the 'The Jump', indeed my mistaken assumption that the AI plan was chosen when the Red Button is clicked was based on observing the 'The Jump';)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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2 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

As I said, I knew about the 'jump' from IED experiments in Mosul.  ;)

Ah I didn't get that reference. Anyway I was more trying to make the jump wider known. I spent a whole afternoon's editor time discovering that one day :(

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To  go back to the original question: I do think buildings and cover are undermodelled. I can quite understand that a breeze block building won't stop 7.62 but modern concrete buildings, especially those prepared for defence (e.g. a sandbagged position inside) and trenches/bunkers/foxholes do seem to be much easier to destroy than RL as seen in videos of action in places like Syria and Ukraine. In Ed Nash's excellent book Desert Sniper (recommended - see reviews on FGM inc mine) a ISIS fortified house position that has resisted all sorts of attacks is finally hammered by using the YPG "home made" 12.7mm and 14.5mm sniper rifles. (here's hoping we can get some of that stuff in the game sometime) images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSonE9lqjeIxTs8IrSty26

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That's a good point, in this scenario I doubt my guys had time to bunker the place up. Also, I doubt the little green men care much about a ROE so can shoot the place up with impunity with QF small caliber guns and large caliber guns, something I imagine our Marines were not allowed to do.  Stalingrad was a completely different animal so it doesn't really apply.

And I just realized that the smaller RPGs can't be fired indoors (well they can but...).... so up to the rooftops with you all....and maybe park the APCs somewhere and use the crew as ad hoc AT teams.

Going to try again!

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Epic fail... my RPG front accounted for maybe 3 APCs... what a joke....  every time my APCs advance they blow up when someone cusses while holding a RPG, when my guys have an RPG, they must be painted bright yellow with "shoot me" printed on them...

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47 minutes ago, ctcharger said:

every time my APCs advance they blow up when someone cusses while holding a RPG, when my guys have an RPG, they must be painted bright yellow with "shoot me" printed on them...

Just wait until you use AT guns. They suck until they are pointed at you!

 

Mord.

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I am calling this a win.  Made some dumb mistakes but clearly better this time.  Clear win if I am writing the history of the battle.... 

They'll never get to Kiev at this rate....

 

 

 

Brutal.jpg

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18 hours ago, JulianJ said:

I can quite understand that a breeze block building won't stop 7.62 but modern concrete buildings, especially those prepared for defence...

You just stirred a memory. Back in the '80s I met a guy who had recently been part of the Berlin Brigade, and who informed me that post war buildings in strategic locations of West Berlin often had walls for the first floor that were ten feet of solid reinforced concrete. I've never heard this from any other source, but so far have not heard any source contradict it either, so take it for what it's worth.

Michael

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10 feet?!?!? wow!!!  We have a grain elevator in Akron that was turned into a hotel and now a dorm for U of A.  Where they cut into the windows, it looks like maybe 3-5 inches.  When I walk buy again, I will have a look.  Old bank buildings around here are pretty stout, or at least look the part.  Not 10 feet though!

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Tried BSBP 01 Honor with predictable results....👎

Strykers against tanks?  sure, that's going to work out....none of my "precision strikes" added up to much, one tank is all...

reminds me of the British Battlecruisers against German Battleships...  

Didn't help that I bogged half my guys in the ford...

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56 minutes ago, sburke said:

Aren't and were not meant to be.  LAVs are.

Oh, oops... would that explain four of them getting stuck in the ford?  I put them on slow thinking that would help.  Are fords to be avoided for the most part I wonder?  

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If they got stuck in a ford that is just bogging.  It happens.  I generally try to go slow as well through fords but even that doesn't help sometimes.  If the ford is too deep it will show as impassable.  Getting 4 stuck though, it may be the designer placed some mud as well and the environmental conditions can also impact bogging.  A LAV would likely bog as well.  Being amphibious doesn't really help in mud.

Edited by sburke

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On 12/23/2018 at 4:08 AM, ctcharger said:

10 feet?!?!? wow!!!  We have a grain elevator in Akron that was turned into a hotel and now a dorm for U of A.  Where they cut into the windows, it looks like maybe 3-5 inches.  When I walk buy again, I will have a look.  Old bank buildings around here are pretty stout, or at least look the part.  Not 10 feet though!

I bet your buildings weren't designed to resist high intensity armed conflict.

;)

Michael

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I gotta agree with CT. Especially since SF2 has so much MOUT and definite planned and also grog wet dream battles are hurt by CMx2s weakest link being MOUT.

Theyll prolly need a new engine to fixin the meantime I wonder if they could modify certain buildins to look fortified and at least have them as objects scenario makers can use. Id like to say add 4 fortified types of emplacements and throw em in the qb menu too but then theyd have to model all bldgs incase you chose that; then you have issues like how will these buildings be "painted" in placement mode if thats even possible.

Fyi ct - any barn looking thing stay away. Cemetaries are good. Those block industrial and church bldgs are best.

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On 12/21/2018 at 5:41 AM, ctcharger said:

If you do fire it up, let me know what works or at least some hints.  Well past the spoiler phase now...  🤕

I finally got around to playing that scenario and it went surprisingly well! It was pretty nerve-racking seeing the huge Russian force bearing down on me but I ended up with a total victory and forced a Russian surrender with 5 minutes left on the clock. That was a really intense battle. It took me days to play it though. One thing I can say for sure is that the positions that most of your troops start out in are really, really bad. I could tell right away that they start out way too exposed. I ended up spending a crazy long time just in the setup phase, reorganizing the entire defense and moving most of my troops around including the foxholes.

Probably the most important thing IMO is to find keyhole positions or positions around corners, so that you can engage their units one at a time as they come into view. Keyhole positions are such a pain for an attacking force to deal with. I had several good spots where my RPG teams could fire until they ran out of ammo and had to run back to get more. I had one platoon covering the western bridge, another covering the southern approach, and the other farther back inside the town.

The first wave of Russians headed toward the western bridge, and I had a few RPGs plus an ATGM all set to open fire the moment the first vehicle got to the other side. Within a few minutes the bridge was covered with burning wreckage, with the Russian infantry pinned down behind their vehicles. With the vehicles down, I sent up a few of the BTRs and some more infantry and counterattacked them, sending the Russian infantry streaming back across the bridge in disarray, right into an artillery barrage. I took surprisingly few casualties. A handful of Russians managed to get across the bridge and into the outlying buildings and gunned down three of my men, but they were dealt with quickly. 

The second and much larger Russian attack came a few minutes later from the south. With the Russians around the bridge destroyed, I was able to shift my entire force over to the south to deal with the new threat. This force was much harder to deal with and they managed to penetrate into the town somewhat. I took most of my casualties here. Still, I was able to whittle them down piece by piece, and as more of their vehicles were destroyed, they became more and more open to counterattacks.

I found the BTRs to be surprisingly useful. I had them zipping back and forth all throughout the battle, resupplying and shuffling men around, and using them to counterattack exposed Russian infantry. The BTRs are also capable of destroying the Russian MT-LBMs if they get the jump on them. My BTRs caused about 27 enemy casualties between them and I lost two of them, one to a stray artillery shell and one to a tank shell. Toward the end of the battle I had three of the BTRs circle around together and attack a bunch of Russian infantry in the flanks, wiping out a couple of squads. The Russians managed to get a toehold in one of the objective zones, but as the clock ran out I started counterattacking them much more aggressively, throwing them back out of the objective again and forcing their surrender. At the end, they only had one MT-LBM left and one badly damaged tank with a busted targeting system and broken crew.

The end result:

D3pUs41.png

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Wow!  The best I did was a draw.  I sent small teams of RPG types to ambush them while they were still on the road.  I will try it again  with your strategy in mind.  The around the corner thing hasn't really worked for me though but I may not be placing them correctly.  I don't think I know how to correctly position them to peak around a corner.

 

 

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