Operation Resurgence - The Liberation of Rajo

[Mattis]

10 hours ago, kevinkin said:

nor does this or any wargame community want to exist.

There are people that love to pretend that they are speaking for the community but they aren´t, it isn´t the truth. There are a few that are extremely vocal but there are much more people playing CM and contributing to it for decades which you don´t see post here occasionaly, or let alone have a forum account. Most people definitely would like to see your project to happen. From where I do know it? Because most wargamers aren´t that malicious bigoted and outright stupid that they would crap onto one´s idea to provide free content just because it isn´t suiting exactly their reactionary preferences

Now regarding these triggered "watcha out into whose face ya getting here" guys. They are just targets and it is really itching to give them some lessons. But you already adressed everything important like a smart person would do. And your thread deserves better than getting riddled with flame wars. We definitely could use more of your decent kind around here.

Best success for your project.

Amen

Edited December 21, 2018 by Mattis

[kevinkin]

Wargamers want to play well and win not play well and lose. The only way I think a player could enjoy playing well and losing is in some kind of coplay wargame. CM does not support coplay. This thread was started to talk about a specific idea for a campaign in an existing commercial product. Now the thread is heading into wargame design concepts. That may be a great topic for the general discussion forum. Ridaz was given very sound advice. Putting a campaign together is daunting which is reflected in the responses here. No one is being malicious or bigoted. They are just being realistic and focused on the original post. 

[sburke]

9 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Wargamers want to play well and win not play well and lose. 

Not necessarily.  I don't want to play a scenario I am guaranteed to "lose" for sure.  But fighting a campaign where the political aspect plays out alongside the fighting so that eventually US forces end up pulling out without having obtained "victory" is kind of mostly how things play out in RL.  Rarely in historical terms is there a war with a clear cut winner/loser anymore.  It may have been more a poor choice of words on his part about the backstory. 

So as an example if his back story is set in Black Sea.  The US intervenes, NATO balks.  Ukraine gov't starts waffling and looking for a compromise way out and the US doesn't feel it has the political backing or rationale to fight on it's own so US forces start a difficult retreat out of the war zone.  That could be one way of doing it with some battles included that put US forces in a difficult position.  Could even be fun. Reading Ed Ruggero's stuff for example Firefall that has a Ranger Bn isolated and fighting for it's life as things play out at a higher political level determining if they will be supported or not.  The definition of winning and losing is a bit cloudy however the player should be able to fight and win the scenarios.  "winning" in itself can mean simply avoiding being wiped out.

I think the problem with designing this as a campaign is that people expect their actions to have an impact in the campaign.  If the campaign simply ends with "you lose" then yeah that would suck.  However if it ends with "US forces were successfully able to break an encirclement and withdraw to fight another day"... that's a win.

[kevinkin]

Backstories, novels, and politics are not what CMSF2 is about. This revised game is about wrecking things around a battlefield from 10 years ago.. CM players were dying for explosive modern combat. Now they have it. Period. Let's not get side tracked. The campaign proposed in this thread will never be designed, playtested , nor released.  Not that the idea was all that bad. But few people have the time and inclination to finish a campaign design. Battlefront gave us the tools, but they "forgot" to give us the time needed.  This thread was merely to give solid advice to the original poster. Let's take miscellaneous campaign ideas to the general discussion forum. 

Kevint

Edited December 22, 2018 by kevinkin

[Vet 0369]

To get back to the OP's original back story, I suggest doing some research on U.S. Marine Recon and Force Recon. There are four Reconnaissance Battalions in the Marine Corps, one in each of the four Marine Divisions. Force Recon are the D Companies of the 1st and 2nd Reconnaissance Battalions, and are under the operational control of the Marine Expeditionary Force (MEF).

The only Marine units that are referred to with a number followed by "Marines," are Marine Regiments, i.e. 1st Marines, 6th Marines, etc. There is no 42nd  Regiment and no Reconnaissance Regiment.

Additionally, Recon Marines used for reconnaissance to gather intelligence for the command, and are usually under orders to avoid contact if at all possible.

To the rest of the posters in the thread, everyone needs to cool down and remember that typing doesn't necessarily convey tone, and some are too quick to leap at a perceived slight. Take a day to sit back and determine if it's really necessary to flame a poster.

i have found that there are now two Light Armored  Reconnaissance Battalions in each Marine Division, so the premise of an LAR Battalion leading the assault are plausible except for the unit designation. Sorry about the error. The first LAR unit was activated in 1985. I got out of the regular Marine Corps in 1973 and the Reserves in 1981, so I had no knowledge ot them.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Vet 0369
Errata

[sburke]

3 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Backstories, novels, and politics are not what CMSF2 is about. 

CMSF has a backstory that is the basis of it's campaigns as does CMBS.  Granted I agree the likelihood of this actually becoming a campaign is slim.  There have been a few threads like this, but one never knows where inspiration may come from.  

@Vet 0369 have you watched or read Generation Kill?  It is funny as the Marines in it complain constantly that they are being mis-used for what they were trained to do.   

[Vet 0369]

3 minutes ago, sburke said:

 

@Vet 0369 have you watched or read Generation Kill?  It is funny as the Marines in it complain constantly that they are being mis-used for what they were trained to do.   

No, I haven't. Is it a book or a media series? I know that Marines in Vietnam were pretty disgusted about politicians controlling rules of engagement (ROE) and not letting us fight as we felt we should, especially after the Mai Lai  incident. I have previously said in the forum that I don't feel Marines are being used per their mission statement, but, "Ours is not to reason why ...."

[sburke]

Just now, Vet 0369 said:

No, I haven't. Is it a book or a media series? I know that Marines in Vietnam were pretty disgusted about politicians controlling rules of engagement (ROE) and not letting us fight as we felt we should, especially after the Mai Lai  incident. I have previously said in the forum that I don't feel Marines are being used per their mission statement, but, "Ours is not to reason why ...."

book and an HBO drama.  it was written by a rolling stone reporter embedded with 1st recon in the drive to Baghdad.  

[Vet 0369]

Marines are always complaining about something. You only have to worry about it when they stop complaining. That indicate a morale problem because they no longer believe that complaining will do any good.

[Sublime]

+1 vet watch Generation Kill most of my friends who saw it and were in Iraq says its pretty accurate.  I enjoyed it thoroughly. I remember reading the articles as the guy dispatched them during and after the war. Heady stuff, those guys had a couple of really lucky engagements where their toughness, luck, etc brought them through. Especially that river ambush in Nasiriya and the assault on the airfield that turned out to be abandoned. They all thought they were going to be killed - IIRC they were ordered to seize the airfield expecting god knows what but at least armor and heavy resistance basically mounted on HMMVs

[sburke]

If you have amazon prime it is on the video selection

[Vet 0369]

7 hours ago, sburke said:

If you have amazon prime it is on the video selection

Excellent! Thank you very much.

[Ridaz]

Seem there was a lot of replies since I last checked. Thanks for all of your supportive comments.

The story is this, whether or not it will ever get made is a differwnt matter. But i need to get this off my chest.

Backstory:

US backed by Turkey send troops into Syria to topple the Assad regime witht the objective of placing a US puppet government. While doing with the support of the Kudish army and other freedom fighters to help maintain territories they have liberated along the way and to keep the peace. 

After finally reaching Aleppo and fighting a huge and bloody battle with the main core of Assad army. The US won a pyrrhic victory but suffered heavy losses in armor and men.

Before the US could even begin to reorganize its army with much needed reinforcement. Several rebel groups stage a well orgamized coup againts the US army to grabbed key milatary bases over Syria.

Overnight, several places fell under rebel control. In the confusion and fear, high command dropped support for any rebels including the PKK and blamed them for the coup. This angered them and after a US mortar misfire killed one of their soildier. The PKK soon joined the rebel coalition.

Pockets of resistance throughout Syria grew into strongholds, eventually cutting off any supply route from Turkey. Any US equipments that were meant to protect the US army were now seized or used againts them instead.

An all out war raged againts the US. A full evacuation order of the US army was issued but it was too little too late. As the combined arms of almost every rebel group in the middle east including some from Iraq fell upon Aleppo, the US army collapsed only addording a few companies to evacuate. 

Seem there was a lot of replies since I last checked. Thanks for all of your supportive comments.

The story is this, whether or not it will ever get made into a full campaign isa different matter. But i need to get this off my chest, and yes it definitely needs polishing.

Backstory:

US backed by Turkey send troops into Syria to topple the Assad regime with the objective of placing a US puppet government. While doing so with the support of the Kurdish army and other freedom fighters to help maintain territories they have liberated along the way and to keep the peace. 

After finally reaching Aleppo and fighting a huge and bloody battle with the main core of Assad's army. The US won a pyrrhic victory but suffered heavy losses in and men and material.

Before the US could even begin to reorganize its army with much needed reinforcement. Several rebel groups staged a well organized coup against the US army to grabbed key military bases over Syria. 

Overnight, several places fall under rebel control. In the confusion and fear, high command dropped political and military support for any rebels including the YPG and blamed them for the coup. This angered them and after a US mortar misfire killed one of their soldier. The YPG soon joined the rebel coalition.

Pockets of resistance throughout Syria grew into strongholds, eventually cutting off any supply route from Turkey and surrounding friendly areas. Any US equipment that were meant to protect the US army were now seized and used against them instead.

In the ensuing power vacuum after the fall of the Syrian government, an all out war raged against the US by rebels with a single goal of seizing Damascus. This sudden up rise caught the US by complete surprise, they have underestimated the underground Russian influence over rebel groups. Turns out the Syrian army were not the only ones with Russian support.

A full evacuation order of the US army was issued but it was too little too late. As the combined arms of almost every rebel group in the middle east including some from Iraq fell upon Aleppo with Russian backing. This lead to the collapse of the US army in Syria under the weight of the unfathomnable alliances forged between these radical groups.

The US army were only able to evacuate roughly 1000 men out of 15,000 that were assigned to this operation only a year ago. Soon Syria was swallowed whole into a second civil war within the last two decade. The country would never again recover to its once exemplary state of a modern Islamic country.

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Your backstory posits an event that has not happened since Dien Bien Phu, 1954:  the systematic siege, encirclement and destruction of a modern Western army by indigenous forces. So fine, it happened then. What would allow it to happen today? 

3 hours ago, Ridaz said:

After finally reaching Aleppo and fighting a huge and bloody battle with the main core of Assad's army. The US won a pyrrhic victory but suffered heavy losses in and men and material.

So what conditions or sudden technical innovation would create such an outcome? There is nothing in Assad's army (or the CMSF2 force set) capable of heavily blooding US mechanised main forces in open combat. And US air power ensures that any such forces rarely reach the field intact.

A Mosul 2016 type of house to house city fight might create a charnel house for the Americans, were they to persist in it, but what would impel them to do so after the trap became apparent? Do you envision die Trumpenfuhrer pounding the table: "I will not abandon the Volga!"

3 hours ago, Ridaz said:

Several rebel groups staged a well organized coup against the US army to grabbed key military bases  over Syria. Overnight, several places fall under rebel control.

Let's assume US forces are caught outnumbered and overextended by a spontaneous unification of all local forces, including nominal allies. What prevents them from resisting, rallying and withdrawing, or reinforcing and counterattacking? They're trained to do that, even outnumbered. It would take some time to get them to believe help wasn't on the way.

(Let's also pretend Israel does not exist, btw) 

1. How are rebel forces suddenly able to defeat heavy mechanised US units? Or alternatively, restrict US mobility and prevent them from breaking out of the traps they find themselves in.

2. What deus ex machina allows RED forces to neutralize US air power? which would otherwise level those newly seized rebel bases, and also allow resupply to the besieged forces.

(Don't say Russian/Chinese air power, because them taking an active role in destroying a US division is WW3 and pretty much nuclear war at that point. In which case you have a Twilight 2000 fantasy which is more FPS than wargame stuff). 

 

.... A 1918 style epidemic might do the trick. Maybe a virulent gastro bug that weakens everyone, but tough local peasant boys used to bad water rally quicker than white bread Americans. Hard to man those advanced weapons in searing heat when you've lost 20 pounds through your bowels. That doesn't cancel the airpower but it might level the field on the ground. 

[sburke]

pretty much everything LLF said.  Totally implausible.  You could make a campaign based on a single unit, maybe company sized that gets cut off, but 15,000 men?  It's your sandbox you can do what you want but you are asking for feedback and your backstory just isn't even close to a possibility.  To make it worth creating it has to have some small slim percentage chance of possibility.  This one doesn't. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

2. What deus ex machina allows RED forces to neutralize US air power? which would otherwise level those newly seized rebel bases, and also allow resupply to the besieged forces.

That's the killer for me.....Even if the insurgents overran every base in the immediate region, the USAF is quite capable of hitting them from the continental US, let alone one of the countless bases in the not quite so immediate area. 

Without direct support from a peer state (Russia or China) the insurgents couldn't even hope to close their airspace to the US.....Even if they captured the entire Syrian SAM network intact, at that point in history it was all S-125s or S-200s, easy meat for a Wild Weasel.

PS - Then there's the cruise missiles.....Have you any idea what an Ohio class SSGN can do? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio-class_submarine

Even Objekt 100 has to be wary of the Ohios. 

 

[Combatintman]

 

4 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

 

.... A 1918 style epidemic might do the trick. Maybe a virulent gastro bug that weakens everyone, but tough local peasant boys used to bad water rally quicker than white bread Americans. Hard to man those advanced weapons in searing heat when you've lost 20 pounds through your bowels. That doesn't cancel the airpower but it might level the field on the ground. 

Well at least we have the mod for it ….

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:13 AM, Pete Wenman said:

The sh/t mod is something I've put together, along with ground rubbish, amended rubble and a re-textured wooden bridge from RT

I'll get them on CMMods later today

 

P

[LongLeftFlank]

Don't get us wrong, Ridaz, if you want  to re-engineer a modern day Manzikert or Ain Jalut or other make glorious victory of Islam believers over arrogant infidel pi-dogs, fly at it! We are all keen to learn.

But since CMSF2 is a realistic wargame, the toolbox for doing that is finite.

You might try the Hezbollah approach, backed by dug in tanks. Once BLUE is in among the hidden rocketeers it can be tough not to show a flank....

On 8/23/2018 at 8:23 PM, LongLeftFlank said:

As for a RED force counter to BLUE open country mech, Hezbollah provides the only successful  modern example. But they had the singular advantage of defence in depth, in a long-prepared zone. Still, they had some interesting tactical ideas.

2006 Lebanon war

Hezbollah deployed their tank-killer teams in a thin but effective defensive scheme, protecting the villages where the organization’s Shiite members reside; villages where their short range rockets were positioned and where command infrastructure and logistics support was set up. An estimated 500 to 600 members of their roughly 4,000-strong Hezbollah fighting strength in South Lebanon were divided into tank-killer teams of 5 or 6, each armed with 5-8 anti-tank missiles, with further supplies stored in small fortified well camouflaged bunkers and fortified basements, built to withstand Israeli air attacks.

Due to mountainous area, engagements were encountered at ranges below 3000 meters. Hezbollah tank-killer teams would lay in wait in camouflaged bunkers or houses, having planted large IEDs on known approach routes. Once an Israeli tank would detonate one of these, Hezbollah would start lobbing mortar shells onto the scene to prevent rescue teams rushing forward, also firing at outflanking Merkava tanks by targeting the more vulnerable rear zone with RPGs.

In general, Hezbollah demonstrated rather slow regrouping and response rate, since their mobility and command links were severely restricted by the IDF dominating the open areas. However, even this slow pace was fast enough to match the slow and indecisive movements of the Israelis forces.

... Benefiting from its superior night combat capability, the IDF conducted most movements at night, minimizing exposure of forces during day time.... 

Realizing the capabilities of the Merkava 4 tank, Hezbollah... engaged these tanks exclusively with the heavier, more capable missiles such as 9M133 AT-14 Kornet, 9M131 Metis M and RPG-29.... the TOW as well as non tandem RPGs, were considered obsolete against tanks, but proved quite lethal against troops seeking cover in buildings.

Overall, almost 90% of the tanks hit were by tandem warheads. 

The IDF employed several hundred tanks.... about ten percent were hit by various threats. Less than half of the hits penetrated.... 

Hezbollah aimed their missiles to the sides, and rear, when possible.... An armored brigade, which bore the brunt of battle.. hundreds of antitank missiles were fired... only 18 tanks were seriously damaged. Of those, missiles actually penetrated only five or six vehicles and according to statistics, only two tanks were totally destroyed, however, both by super-heavy IED charges.

 

[Ridaz]

12 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Your backstory posits an event that has not happened since Dien Bien Phu, 1954:  the systematic siege, encirclement and destruction of a modern Western army by indigenous forces. So fine, it happened then. What would allow it to happen today? 

So what conditions or sudden technical innovation would create such an outcome? There is nothing in Assad's army (or the CMSF2 force set) capable of heavily blooding US mechanised main forces in open combat. And US air power ensures that any such forces rarely reach the field intact.

A Mosul 2016 type of house to house city fight might create a charnel house for the Americans, were they to persist in it, but what would impel them to do so after the trap became apparent? Do you envision die Trumpenfuhrer pounding the table: "I will not abandon the Volga!"

Let's assume US forces are caught outnumbered and overextended by a spontaneous unification of all local forces, including nominal allies. What prevents them from resisting, rallying and withdrawing, or reinforcing and counterattacking? They're trained to do that, even outnumbered. It would take some time to get them to believe help wasn't on the way.

(Let's also pretend Israel does not exist, btw) 

1. How are rebel forces suddenly able to defeat heavy mechanised US units? Or alternatively, restrict US mobility and prevent them from breaking out of the traps they find themselves in.

2. What deus ex machina allows RED forces to neutralize US air power? which would otherwise level those newly seized rebel bases, and also allow resupply to the besieged forces.

(Don't say Russian/Chinese air power, because them taking an active role in destroying a US division is WW3 and pretty much nuclear war at that point. In which case you have a Twilight 2000 fantasy which is more FPS than wargame stuff). 

 

.... A 1918 style epidemic might do the trick. Maybe a virulent gastro bug that weakens everyone, but tough local peasant boys used to bad water rally quicker than white bread Americans. Hard to man those advanced weapons in searing heat when you've lost 20 pounds through your bowels. That doesn't cancel the airpower but it might level the field on the ground. 

Thanks for your feedback and pointing out some questions. I'll try to answer most of them.

(Let's also pretend Israel does not exist, btw)

• Israel did help in the initial stages with missiles infrastructure bombardment but once US had establish proper bases throughout Syria they had not much need for Israel's missiles. 

1. There is nothing in Assad's army (or the CMSF2 force set) capable of heavily blooding US mechanised main forces in open combat.

• By themselves no but with years of Russian training and equipment this becomes plausible. Again you have to imagined that the US only had 15,000 men to topple country's government which is not many considering you are fighting in Syria with bigger manpower and on their own turf. FYI: the invasion of Iraq was had a half million in US manpower alone. 
• 15,000 men were part of the first wave and due to lack of public support for this, the US had to limit their troops and instead heavily relied on local rebels groups and support from surrounding allies.

1. How are rebel forces suddenly able to defeat heavy mechanised US units? Or alternatively, restrict US mobility and prevent them from breaking out of the traps they find themselves in.

• The reason being that the main army was too deep into Syria territory and any links back to friendly bases were now either captured or in disarray, cutting off majority routes for resupply and reorganization. This also splits up part of the army dotting around Syria.

2. What deus ex machina allows RED forces to neutralize US air power? which would otherwise level those newly seized rebel bases, and also allow resupply to the besieged forces.

There are several reason why this is possible. 

• US air force could not simply bomb or flatten existing US base as not all of them were taken immediately and they are still friendlies in those bases fighting for their life to get out, since there is no way they would leave their bases to "friendly rebels".
• Russian air force still control some of the air space i Syria. To avoid possible conflicts with Russia the US were limited to where they could fly in therefore limiting it's ability for ground support.
• This is every messy and gray situation where every decision would impact either sides heavily. Their goal is to evacuate any remaining troops, regroup and strategize with the new knowledge that they could be facing a united front of Arabs, whereas their initial one was solely based on the support o local militias and only facing the Syrian army.

2 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Don't get us wrong, Ridaz, if you want  to re-engineer a modern day Manzikert or Ain Jalut or other make glorious victory of Islam believers over arrogant infidel pi-dogs, fly at it! We are all keen to learn.

But since CMSF2 is a realistic wargame, the toolbox for doing that is finite.

You might try the Hezbollah approach, backed by dug in tanks. Once BLUE is in among the hidden rocketeers it can be tough not to show a flank....

 

I was largely inspired by the destruction of centre army group during operation Bagration. FWIW I am not doing this mission to spout any Islamic propaganda but to creating a conundrum where the US army is in the perfect political climate whcih would allow severely limited US power in the region and to see how they can react to it. 

[sburke]

I think you should just say this is a totally imaginary situation with no semblance to reality and then just go ahead and do whatever you want.  If you make a campaign most folks probably won't care about the back story.  If you don't make a campaign no one will.... 

Trying to rationalize any of this being possible is simply a waste of time.  Even if you posit a best case situation it still just isn't possible.  15,000 US troops are not going to be overwhelmed by anything in the middle east.  Maybe if they were marching on Astana...….

[Ridaz]

1 hour ago, sburke said:

I think you should just say this is a totally imaginary situation with no semblance to reality and then just go ahead and do whatever you want.  If you make a campaign most folks probably won't care about the back story.  If you don't make a campaign no one will.... 

Trying to rationalize any of this being possible is simply a waste of time.  Even if you posit a best case situation it still just isn't possible.  15,000 US troops are not going to be overwhelmed by anything in the middle east.  Maybe if they were marching on Astana...….

ok thanks for your opinion

[LongLeftFlank]

 

Yeah, you definitely don't need our approval to go what-iffing around the game. Go for it. I once floated a what-if concept on the CMBS board that had French and US forces shooting at each other in Ukraine. Pretty damn unlikely, but wev, it's a game. 

Would you consider some kind of Cherkassy type "Lost Legion" breakout, where a ragtag mix of US forces pushes for Beirut under a gauntlet of fire from a Turko-Syrian-Uncon alliance? That way, you get more meeting engagements which tend to be more balanced and fun.

Any way, enough advice. Have fun with your project and good holidays.

Edited December 24, 2018 by LongLeftFlank

[Ridaz]

16 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

 

Yeah, you definitely don't need our approval to go what-iffing around the game. Go for it. I once floated a what-if concept on the CMBS board that had French and US forces shooting at each other in Ukraine. Pretty damn unlikely, but wev, it's a game. 

Would you consider some kind of Cherkassy type "Lost Legion" breakout, where a ragtag mix of US forces pushes for Beirut under a gauntlet of fire from a Turko-Syrian-Uncon alliance? That way, you get more meeting engagements which tend to be more balanced and fun.

Any way, enough advice. Have fun with your project and good holidays.

The Lost Legion breakout sounds fun and maybe one of the mission will include similar situation. Yeah I thinks US vs Mixed alliance would benefit the story credibility since most people here think the US cannot be defeated even if it's a 20:1 ratio.

[LongLeftFlank]

With Turks you'd get Western tanks fighting for RED. Maybe Israel unexpectedly grabs Lebanon and Sinai and triggers a pan-Muslim alliance or sumfink. 

If you really want to put a thumb on the scale, say climate change or a volcanic eruption triggers massive dust storms throughout the region, messing up optics and engines and neutralizing air support.

WITNESS ME, SHOCK FORCE!!! 

 

[Ridaz]

28 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

With Turks you'd get Western tanks fighting for RED. Maybe Israel unexpectedly grabs Lebanon and Sinai and triggers a pan-Muslim alliance or sumfink. 

If you really want to put a thumb on the scale, say climate change or a volcanic eruption triggers massive dust storms throughout the region, messing up optics and engines and neutralizing air support.

WITNESS ME, SHOCK FORCE!!! 

 

Yeah, I like this idea, I think we're going somewhere with this. 

I am also throwing my story to my local arma group for some feedback.