How to use insurgent forces???

[Gazmaps]

Is it just me - but is this missing? Ive been thru the shockforce2 manual but cant find any info on how to use the IEDs, spies etc....

If Ive got this right can we get this added?

Or some keano - write up a detailed post.

Cheers

Gaz

 

 

[domfluff]

The CMSF 2 manual is lacking here.

***IED***

IED's need to be activated before use. Each type of IED (Cell/Radio/Wire) has different issues - Cell and Radio IEDs are (should be) affected by ECM, but longer effective ranges.

Wire – shortest distance (about 100m), 10% failure 
Radio – medium distance (about 300m), requires line of sight, 20% failure
Cell phone – long distance (about 600m), 10% failure

Radio and Cell phone IED's can be jammed by IED jammer equipment (British Warriors).

These need to be activated with a "Target" order. If this is given to empty space, the IED will explode like a mine when someone is nearby. If this is targeted to a unit, the IED will explode when the unit is close.

An appropriate triggerman needs to set off the IED, and should be put within the distances above.

There are also Vehicle IEDs and IED mines. The latter are conventional minefields (but have a larger explosion), and the former are a vehicle, driver and spy unit. The spy has nothing to do with the VBIED, he's just a spy to scout for the insurgent forces. VBIED do not need activation either, they just explode on contact with opposition, with a massive explosion.

***Spies***

Spies come in two flavours - spies and Spy forward observers, with a radio. Both are unarmed and absolutely vital to the uncon game plan, since it's one of the advantages you have.  They're hard for the enemy to spot, and therefore are useful for getting eyes onto the enemy forces and relaying that information.

*** Fighters and Combatants ***

There are two types of Uncon forces, "fighter" are mujaheddin, fanatically motivated black-clad killers. They tend not to be particularly well trained, but they do have the best equipment, up to and including AT-14's, which are a serious threat, as well as medium mortars, on map or off.

"Combatants" are the more rag-tag types, generally worse equipped and led, but can be highly motivated.

The primary difference in CMSF 1 was the Civilian Density map setting. This setting exists in CMSF 2 but currently (presumably a bug) doesn't seem to have any actual game effect. 

In CMSF 1, civilian density would apply "stealth" to Combatants and the supporting teams (spies, etc.), but not Fighters. They would be able to "Move" without being seen, blending into the abstracted civilian population. This therefore meant that spies could hide and spot the enemy, Combatants could set up sneaky close-ranged ambushes, and Fighters could bring the firepower. I'm really hoping this gets fixed, since it's really fundamental to the game.

*** Vehicles ***

Supporting this are the transport and technical options. Transport here are taxis and pickup trucks, which behave as you'd expect. Technicals are pickups with weapons mounted on the rear, typically MGs but also RPG-29 and anti-air 14.5 mm MGs, which are important for shooting down drones. Technicals are difficult to use, since they're unarmoured but have a lot of firepower. They're useful for flanking, flank security and acting as a mobile reserve, but their utility is a bit suspicious in general.



Uncon advantages: 

- IEDs are really powerful and can't be detected.
- Cheap, well motivated troops, which can fight and die in place
- Able to use civilians as concealment (or should be able to - this is currently bugged)
- Complex terrain (particularly urban) is a massive equaliser. AK's and particularly RPG-7's are fantastic at close ranges, and pretty much as good as anything.

Uncon disadvantages:

- Poor training and equiipment
- Lack of night vision
- Poor or lacking C2 (and the command structure in general)
- Zero armour
- No artillery above medium mortars


Generally speaking, I'd assume that each "platoon"-like element can only really carry out one objective. If they succeed in their objective, but die in the process, then that should be considered a "win". Defensively you're probably then better off with isolated groups that manage their own defence, but which can support each other with overlapping RPG-29 or ATGM fires.

Offensively I think you have some serious difficulty - you really need Civilian Density to be fixed, since close ranged hit and run attacks seem to be the most sensible plan.

[Gazmaps]

nice!!! where did you get it from?

[domfluff]

The specifics of the IEDs are from CMSF 1, but they seem to be identical in CMSF with the limited testing I've done so far.

Civilian Density doesn't seem to have any effect at all, which is a problem. It's either a bug, or it has a completely different game effect, which is not clear. It's probably a bug.

The rest of it is just observation, from 1 and 2.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

Also some additional information that is not obvious (counter intuitive actually) but can be useful: 

An IED can be activated and detonated by any triggerman.  Example: A Wire triggerman can activate and/or detonate a cell or radio IED.

[rocketman]

Thanks @domfluff. I looked in the manual for all this stuff as I had not played SF1. Extremely weird omission on BFC's part. Hopefully the manual will be updated. Would hate for new players to get this as their first impression of CM-games.

Another thing I might have missed and couldn't find in the manual is the artillery option "armour". Is that new for precision arty? Can't remember it being in BS.

[domfluff]

Armour missions were in CMSF 1, but not later games. For 155's at least, there aren't any actual-armour piercing rounds, so they'll still be using the same HE stuff.

There's a debate elsewhere in the forum about this.

CMSF 1 manual has:

General - generic setting
Armor - weights towards anti-armor rounds
Personnel - weights in favor of airburst antipersonnel rounds

Which for the 155's, if there is a difference, can only be differences in fuses, whether they explode above the target, or on it.

[Vet 0369]

Here's a question for you all, in the first mission of the CMSF2 Semper Fi Syria campaign, the Recon are supported by two Destroyers (5" guns) that are represented in the fire missions by 155mm guns. Oddly enough, one of the mission selections is "Precision" with three Excalibur rounds. Can a Destroyer fire Excalibers? We're Excalibers even available in 2008?

Edited December 14, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Combatintman]

12 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

Here's a question for you all, in the first mission of the CMSF2 Semper Fi Syria campaign, the Recon are supported by two Destroyers (5" guns) that are represented in the fire missions by 155mm guns. Oddly enough, one of the mission selections is "Precision" with three Excalibur rounds. Can a Destroyer fire Excalibers?

I'm no expert but a quick bit of rummaging turned up these two articles:

https://breakingdefense.com/2016/01/excalibur-goes-to-sea-raytheon-smart-artillery-shoots-back/

http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/2015-09-30-Raytheons-combat-proven-Excalibur-moves-closer-to-sea-based-application

The answer from the two articles above would appear to be yes - although the capability is not yet fielded. Of course the game is set in 2008 so I guess it is a bit of an anachronism but then the game doesn't have TLAMs which are precision weapons that could have been fired from a DDG in the game timeframe.

[Vet 0369]

That's kind of what I thought. I suspect that since 155s were used in the original CMSF1 mission to simulate the 5-inch Destroyer support, the Designer who redid the campaign just left them in, forgetting that they were changed to fire Excalibers in CMBS. I should probably report it as a bug.

Sorry for the thread hijack.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:43 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

Also some additional information that is not obvious (counter intuitive actually) but can be useful: 

An IED can be activated and detonated by any triggerman.  Example: A Wire triggerman can activate and/or detonate a cell or radio IED.

Really? 

Is that something new that came with CM:SF2 or has it always been so?

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:40 PM, domfluff said:

Civilian Density doesn't seem to have any effect at all, which is a problem. It's either a bug, or it has a completely different game effect, which is not clear. It's probably a bug.

I was never convinced that it worked for armed uncon units in the original game (it definitely worked as advertised for spies), but your research posted in another thread seemed to indicate that it did. 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Is that something new that came with CM:SF2 or has it always been so?

It has always been so.  

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Blimey.....That makes 'em even more dangerous! 

[tpr]

On 12/12/2018 at 11:05 AM, domfluff said:

The CMSF 2 manual is lacking here.

***IED***

IED's need to be activated before use. Each type of IED (Cell/Radio/Wire) has different issues - Cell and Radio IEDs are (should be) affected by ECM, but longer effective ranges.

Wire – shortest distance (about 100m), 10% failure 
Radio – medium distance (about 300m), requires line of sight, 20% failure
Cell phone – long distance (about 600m), 10% failure

Radio and Cell phone IED's can be jammed by IED jammer equipment (British Warriors).

These need to be activated with a "Target" order. If this is given to empty space, the IED will explode like a mine when someone is nearby. If this is targeted to a unit, the IED will explode when the unit is close.

There are also Vehicle IEDs and IED mines. The latter are conventional minefields (but have a larger explosion), and the former are a vehicle, driver and spy unit. The spy has nothing to do with the VBIED, he's just a spy to scout for the insurgent forces. VBIED do not need activation either, they just explode on contact with opposition, with a massive explosion.

***Spies***

Spies come in two flavours - spies and Spy forward observers, with a radio. Both are unarmed and absolutely vital to the uncon game plan, since it's one of the advantages you have.  They're hard for the enemy to spot, and therefore are useful for getting eyes onto the enemy forces and relaying that information.

*** Fighters and Combatants ***

There are two types of Uncon forces, "fighter" are mujaheddin, fanatically motivated black-clad killers. They tend not to be particularly well trained, but they do have the best equipment, up to and including AT-14's, which are a serious threat, as well as medium mortars, on map or off. "Combatants" are the more rag-tag types, generally worse equipped and led, but can be highly motivated.

civilian density would apply "stealth" to Combatants and the supporting teams (spies, etc.), but not Fighters. They would be able to "Move" without being seen, blending into the abstracted civilian population. This therefore meant that spies could hide and spot the enemy, Combatants could set up sneaky close-ranged ambushes, and Fighters could bring the firepower. I'm really hoping this gets fixed, since it's really fundamental to the game.

This info of dumfluff´s guide + the remark that every triggerman can trigger any bomb should be pinned or highlighted otherwise.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Captain Reyes

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I was never sure whether the Spy was significant to the detonation of a VBIED (Does he need LOS to it?), so I always left 'em in the car.....If they are surplus to requirements, they could be used for other things. 

[domfluff]

Spy has nothing to do with the VBIED. He comes with it so that you can have a "spotter" to tell the VBIED where to go, that's it.
 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Cheers.....That gives ISIS a whole bunch of extra 'eyes' to make CTS life more difficult.  Can Spies talk to on-map mortars, I wonder? 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[domfluff]

Most spies can't - they're just pairs of eyes. The "Spy forward observer" can though.

The issue is that (it seems) like Civilian Density isn't actually doing anything, so uncons and spies can't actually do their job - hiding amongst the civilian population.

I'm hoping this was one of the outstanding issues that Steve was talking about with the CMSF 2 release, and that it will get fixed soon. It does make uncons pretty terrible otherwise.