Vehicle Immobilization

[Sublime]

I like the ideaman but I think like a lot of good ideas you.ll get a bunch of responses that

Its outside the immediate tactical scope of the game and battle

That instances where recoveries happened under fire werent common enough to warrant it

As you said, many people probably wouldnt utilize it or want to play vehicle recovery specialist

The famous "where does it end trope" - recovery shops? Repair teams? Little tent field hospitals? Etc

Mind you I dont mind your idea at all esp. Because you were there and I wasnt; you know infinitely more than I ever will about combat.

That said I would prefer they focussed on a couple other issues first-

Bunkers/fortified bldgs, tank bunkers and ramps

Better trenchs

Better MOUT *****

(Until thats achieved either we.ll need a new engine or Fallujah 04, Ramadi, Konigsberg, Berlin, Stalingrad, etc are only going to be shells of what they should be.)

[slysniper]

I also will stay with the concept that stopping a bogging tank, either giving a different move command or even firing the weapon seems to help in the game stop it from getting immobilized.

testing it out, no have not done it or will I.

but it sure seems to work for me, where as if I just let the machine keep going on the present command. Immobilization seem to happen about as much as it does not.

But with all good things, til its tested who really knows.

[Sublime]

Agree 100%. Kudos to testers cuz I cant be bothered. But anecdotal evidence over 3 to 7 or 8 years with single.player, and usually 5 or 6 pbems running multi turns daily you get a really good feel for the game and stuff. And IME if its bogged and u dont cancel the move order you just drove a pillbox to that spot. If u stop the move order ur almost guaranteed to get out of it. Also the animation (this is minor) for bogged and unbogged is a little silly. Because bogged the vehicle sits lower and when unbogged it seems to 'bounce' 3 feet in the air suddenly

[wadepm]

On 12/11/2018 at 3:36 PM, StieliAlpha said:

Oops, sounds like the argument is not very clear.

Using fresh crews, to obtain intel: Okayyyy, possible but gamey.

Using bailed out crews: Very gamey. I do not have actual experience, indeed. But if I imagine a 3“ (plus) shell exploding next to me, making me bail out of a tank, I do not think I would fancy to rush upfront again.

I disagree that disembarking a crew to do some recon is gamey.  This happened IRL, I have read of this happening numerous times.  Of course,  I don't remember exactly where I saw this...but I have! 

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, wadepm said:

Of course,  I don't remember exactly where I saw this...but I have! 

Ahem. Seems like I've been in that boat a number of times. Not a lot of freeboard on that tub, is there?

Michael

[wadepm]

31 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Ahem. Seems like I've been in that boat a number of times. Not a lot of freeboard on that tub, is there?

Michael

I'm bailing as fast as I can...

[StieliAlpha]

16 hours ago, wadepm said:

I disagree that disembarking a crew to do some recon is gamey.  This happened IRL, I have read of this happening numerous times.  Of course,  I don't remember exactly where I saw this...but I have! 

You see, that‘s a nice feature in CM. You can employ any tactic you want, as long as the game supports it.

Though it is advisable to agree on „house rules“ for a QB.E.g., the nasty „first turn strike“ is quite often an issue.

As a final thought perhaps: Yes, many things happen in RL. But are they „statiscally significant“?

I remember a story about a German AT gunner, who killed wounded and single handed 19 (or so) Russian tanks. Maybe true, but I would not make it a “standard procedure” for CM rules.

But then, in one game, I had a “sole survivor”, who ruled a street intersection, with his MP, only for more than 10 minutes. Until he ran out of ammo...

[mjkerner]

16 minutes ago, StieliAlpha said:

But then, in one game, I had a “sole survivor”, who ruled a street intersection, with his MP, only for more than 10 minutes. Until he ran out of ammo...

Love those unplanned little action stories that this game produces!

[Sublime]

I have to say I have read multiple accounts ( dont doubt other crews perhaps did this but I only specifically remember reading about Pz crews doing this. Im almost certain Otto Carius mentions it in Tigers in the Mud more than once.

[Bozowans]

Holy crap, I had no idea that movement speed does not actually affect your bogging chances at all. For years I had thought that moving slower lowered the chances. I tried looking in the manual but couldn't find anything. Was that the case in CMx1? Maybe that's one of the things in CMx1 that didn't make the transition to CMx2?

Does this mean that it's actually better to move fast through difficult terrain, in order to minimize the amount of time your vehicle is in there? 

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, Bozowans said:

Does this mean that it's actually better to move fast through difficult terrain, in order to minimize the amount of time your vehicle is in there? 

My SOP is generally give vehicles Fast.  However the vehicles will slow down on there own when they hit difficult terrain or are crossing an obstacle.  Example: when they crush through a fence or enter light forest terrain they slow down but when they clear they resume Fast (if you've ordered them Fast).   

[Vinnart]

My experience, and agree with similar comments, is to take it SLOW over obstacles or over rough/wet terrain to reduce chance of track damage and bogging leading to immobilization. I did a test map way back and found out good tips on the matter. Avoid wheeled vehicles like M8's too with obstacles as they fare much worse than tracked.

Best tip to un-bogg works 90% time - Cancel move order, then give short REVERSE with waypoint to move SLOW forward.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Vinnart

[MOS:96B2P]

On 12/12/2018 at 7:32 AM, MOS:96B2P said:

There are many forum threads on bogging / immobilization.  The below are some of the lessons learned.    

Movement speed has no demonstrated effect on bogging/immobilization rates.

Also vehicles will slow down of their own accord for some kinds of bumping: the berm remaining when a bocage hedge is demo'ed, for example, crossing any obstacle they can crush, and rough terrain like light woods. So just give them Fast orders and let them sort themselves out... 

Even without movement orders bogged vehicles will continue to try to get free (you can see the tracks of tanks moving). So once it's bogged, it will eventually either transition to immobilized or free, regardless of your actions. No correlation between type of movement orders and success/failure of un-sticking a bogged vehicle.

 

On 12/12/2018 at 3:04 AM, Bulletpoint said:

It's one of the undying myths of Combat Mission. @IanL tested it and busted that myth long ago

 

8 hours ago, Vinnart said:

My experience, and agree with similar comments, is to take it SLOW over obstacles or over rough/wet terrain to reduce chance of track damage and bogging leading to immobilization. I did a test map way back and found out good tips on the matter. Avoid wheeled vehicles like M8's too with obstacles as they fare much worse than tracked.

Best tip to un-bogg works 90% time - Cancel move order, then give short REVERSE with waypoint to move SLOW forward.

Vin, my friend, I think you didn't have time to read the thread and just skimmed through it and came away with the wrong conclusion.  Or at least a conclusion not supported by the information in this thread.  Or maybe you are just disagreeing anyways?  If so, that is fine, but I thought I would say something just in case you missed some information in this thread. 

But if you are saying you have a different opinion that is okay too.  My intent is to be helpful not argumentative.    

Your Sgt. Rock avatar is very cool by the way.  I read those comic books back in the day.      

[Vinnart]

96 Bravo , Admittedly  I did skim the thread but I guess my experience and testing have been different and still leaves me with my conclusions. Try the reverse then slow for bogging next time. It works most time that way. OK, ok I do throw in a "Fonzie" too by hitting the desk top so maybe that's my trick

If you got any of the old Sgt. Rock comics they are worth $ today. I collected as a kid and glad I took care and kept them. Had one book I sold from 1960's "Our Army at War" (original Rock title) that was worth $400. The avitar is my favorite cover by Joe Kurbert who did much of the art for it. Very talented artist!

[MOS:96B2P]

44 minutes ago, Vinnart said:

still leaves me with my conclusions. 

If you got any of the old Sgt. Rock comics they are worth $ today. I collected as a kid and glad I took care and kept them. Had one book I sold from 1960's "Our Army at War" (original Rock title) that was worth $400. The avitar is my favorite cover by Joe Kurbert who did much of the art for it. Very talented artist!

+1  Okay, understood, very good. 

I wish I still had those comics.  After I left home for the military my parents moved and I said it was okay to get rid of them . 

[JoMac]

2 hours ago, Vinnart said:

96 Bravo , Admittedly  I did skim the thread but I guess my experience and testing have been different and still leaves me with my conclusions. Try the reverse then slow for bogging next time. It works most time that way. OK, ok I do throw in a "Fonzie" too by hitting the desk top so maybe that's my trick

If you got any of the old Sgt. Rock comics they are worth $ today. I collected as a kid and glad I took care and kept them. Had one book I sold from 1960's "Our Army at War" (original Rock title) that was worth $400. The avitar is my favorite cover by Joe Kurbert who did much of the art for it. Very talented artist!

I remember this being applied in CMx1 (when it was first discussed), and seemed to have worked...I think it's possible this behavior has carried over into CMx2.

Yeah, I remember my G.I. Combat Comics as well (along with Sgt. Rock, Fury, etc)...:-)

Edited December 21, 2018 by JoMc67

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, Vinnart said:

Try the reverse then slow for bogging next time. It works most time that way.

I just leave them be, and they also un-bog most of the time

[MikeyD]

Some titles you can combine dirt roads with damp ground with mud terrain tiles with heavy rain 'til you're in a situation of "Why would you even consider deploying armor in conditions like this?" CMFB seems to have more instances of extreme weather/ground conditions than other titles, but you don't often see extremes of rain or snow used. Because they can be show-stoppers, depending on what forces you're trying to deploy, and scenario designers aren't in the habit of making purposefully unplayable scenarios.

Oops! I may have to eat my words. I just played a heavy snow/blizzard QB in CMFB and got no bogs at all, much to my great surprise. Maybe the ground was so frozen that it reduced the chance of bogging. And BTW, after spending much of the year in the Syrian desert I forgot how gorgeous winter Ardennes can be sometimes.

Edited December 25, 2018 by MikeyD