Jump to content
Armorgunner

Is there not a difference in armored protection, between different tanks?

Recommended Posts

All US M1 versions have the same protection in game. Leo 2A4, and A6  also have the same protection level in game! That should not be the case! Or is the "old" defence levels from SF1 still there? 

"Top secret" in the real World, I know. But it feels a bit strange, that a thick DU/MEXAS/AMAP addon armour, does not count at all?? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm no tank expert but the game does model the armour that each variant of each tank has. At least a close as BFC can tell. My understanding is that the Leo A6 is fairly comparable to the M1s of the day, in terms of protection. What are you seeing that you find surprising?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a scenario between Marine M1A1 and Syrian T90s and the M1A1s are being easily holed from extended range. I suspect M1A2s would fare better. I may swap out the vehicles to test that out.  If you're basing you assumptions on the little 'Defenses' UI graph that's a VERY rough assessment of the vehicles. Challenger 2, for example, shows the same level of protection as Leopard 2A4 in the 'Defenses' graph but is very very much tougher.

Edited by MikeyD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, IanL said:

I'm no tank expert but the game does model the armour that each variant of each tank has. At least a close as BFC can tell. My understanding is that the Leo A6 is fairly comparable to the M1s of the day, in terms of protection. What are you seeing that you find surprising?

Misundertanding from you! All Versions of the Abrams, has the same protection in the game! Heavy common (HC) Has the same armour as the regular M1A2. The same goes for the Leopard. The A4, has exatly the same protection as the A6. Even though the A6 have wedge shaped Heavy addonarmor. The 15400 lb of extra armour on the A6, is noehere to be found in game. Only the extra wheight. So it moves slower cross country!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

There's a scenario between Marine M1A1 and Syrian T90s and the M1A1s are being easily holed from extended range. I suspect M1A2s would fare better. I may swap out the vehicles to test that out.  If you're basing you assumptions on the little 'Defenses' UI graph that's a VERY rough assessment of the vehicles. Challenger 2, for example, shows the same level of protection as Leopard 2A4 in the 'Defenses' graph but is very very much tougher.

I have tested it out in the past, and the M1A2 fares better in every regard. It spots better, and when it takes a hit it is much less likely to be penetrated than the M1A1HC. I've also used the scenario in question to test out the differences between the Leopard 2A4 and the 2A6. Same thing, the 2A6 fares much better than the 2A4. 

6 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

Misundertanding from you! All Versions of the Abrams, has the same protection in the game! Heavy common (HC) Has the same armour as the regular M1A2. The same goes for the Leopard. The A4, has exatly the same protection as the A6. Even though the A6 have wedge shaped Heavy addonarmor. The 15400 lb of extra armour on the A6, is noehere to be found in game. Only the extra wheight. So it moves slower cross country!

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that all of these tank variants are the same, but I can assure you that it is a misunderstanding on your part. As MikeyD mentioned, the 'Defense' UI graph is merely a rough estimate, a generalization that is made between the tank and various enemy munitions. It is not a comparison between tanks. 

If you really want to see for yourself, open up the editor and pit the M1A2 against the M1A1HC, or the Leopard 2A6 against Leopard 2A4s. The differences in protection levels will become quite clear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

I have tested it out in the past, and the M1A2 fares better in every regard. It spots better, and when it takes a hit it is much less likely to be penetrated than the M1A1HC. I've also used the scenario in question to test out the differences between the Leopard 2A4 and the 2A6. Same thing, the 2A6 fares much better than the 2A4. 

I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that all of these tank variants are the same, but I can assure you that it is a misunderstanding on your part. As MikeyD mentioned, the 'Defense' UI graph is merely a rough estimate, a generalization that is made between the tank and various enemy munitions. It is not a comparison between tanks. 

If you really want to see for yourself, open up the editor and pit the M1A2 against the M1A1HC, or the Leopard 2A6 against Leopard 2A4s. The differences in protection levels will become quite clear. 

That was what I wanted to hear!! But I did´nt "open up the editor". I just looked in game. Why is the differance not showed in the game? Just a simple question? I love Battlefront! I love all the games from them. And I have all of them, exept CMBN. ( From Barbarossa to Berlin, that is. Not the first one )

Edited by Armorgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For fun I did (attempted) a QB pitting Leopard 2A4 against Challenger 2 in a Blue-on-Blue matchup. Challenger 2 wiped the floor with Leopard 2A4, almost as bad as against Syrian 1970s Soviet equipment. Germany had passed up on 'Chobham' armor for Leopard 2 in the 1970s due to expense and maintenance issues. So their tank armor is 'like Chobham armor but not Chobham armor'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

Misundertanding from you! All Versions of the Abrams, has the same protection in the game!

Where are you getting that from? I know that BFC puts a lot of work in modelling the protection of each tank variant. As I said I'm not an expert so I might not recognize if the protection is unexpected but I do know the intention is to model the differences.

 

22 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

That was what I wanted to hear!! But I did´nt "open up the editor". I just looked in game.

Can you elaborate - looked at what?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, IanL said:

Where are you getting that from? I know that BFC puts a lot of work in modelling the protection of each tank variant. As I said I'm not an expert so I might not recognize if the protection is unexpected but I do know the intention is to model the differences.

 

 

Edited by Armorgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Armorgunner said:

 

 

30 minutes ago, IanL said:

Where are you getting that from? I know that BFC puts a lot of work in modelling the protection of each tank variant. As I said I'm not an expert so I might not recognize if the protection is unexpected but I do know the intention is to model the differences.

 

Can you elaborate - looked at what?

Where I´m getting that from? From the Game! Click on a tank, or an IFV or whatewer. And in the units menu, click on the shield (defence). Thats where I got it from! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Armorgunner said:

Where I´m getting that from? From the Game! Click on a tank, or an IFV or whatewer. And in the units menu, click on the shield (defence). Thats where I got it from!

Ah. But as you can see from that scale (which has to include lightly armoured vehicles) there is no way they can represent the differences between various variants of protection. So, that number of shields measurement is really really rough. There can be of difference between two five shield tanks.

The various tank armour *is* modelled in the game. If you follow the suggestions that @IICptMillerII and @MikeyD made and pit various tanks against each other you will see the difference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The in game info does not do a good job as to letting you know how good each tank armor protection is.

The only way to do it  presently is how these guys are telling you.

Set up some match ups in a QB and see how tanks survive against certain other tanks. You will get a much better feel for what will happen when using them anyway than any chart will ever do you.

But rest assured, you will see how these tanks do vary in what they might be able to survive. They are not the same as you are seeing from the simple in game chart

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, IanL said:

Ah. But as you can see from that scale (which has to include lightly armoured vehicles) there is no way they can represent the differences between various variants of protection. So, that number of shields measurement is really really rough. There can be of difference between two five shield tanks.

The various tank armour *is* modelled in the game. If you follow the suggestions that @IICptMillerII and @MikeyD made and pit various tanks against each other you will see the difference.

If thats so? Why is the differance between the Challenger, and the enhanced Challenger differ. In the side protection in game? Thats not near the 15400 lb of weight differance, as in the Leo 2. Or as The M1A2 and DU variant? As said Before. I dont wont to fight, just asking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, sburke said:

Yeah I pretty much ignore that info section in the UI. It isn’t graded enough to really show you true values. 

After this dicussion. I´m sattisfied and belive what you say is the case. A minor glitch in the UI

Edited by Armorgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Armorgunner it is clear now what you were looking at and what you are looking for. The UI as others have noted is not at the level of detail you are looking for. Best bet is to look at real world info. BF is very particular about modeling, maybe not so good at presenting that info in a user format. 😛

play around with them and the differences should be clear.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, sburke said:

@Armorgunner it is clear now what you were looking at and what you are looking for. The UI as others have noted is not at the level of detail you are looking for. Best bet is to look at real world info. BF is very particular about modeling, maybe not so good at presenting that info in a user format. 😛

play around with them and the differences should be clear.  

Will do "Sir" And thankyou for the lesson 😀 (IanL to)

Edited by Armorgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Armorgunner said:

If thats so? Why is the differance between the Challenger, and the enhanced Challenger differ. In the side protection in game? Thats not near the 15400 lb of weight differance, as in the Leo 2. Or as The M1A2 and DU variant? As said Before. I dont wont to fight, just asking?

I saw enhanced Challys take multiple hits to the face in SF1 and keep dishing out punishment themselves.  Hits the regular challenger wouldnt have been able to take.  Same with SEP abrams and the M1A1SA.  The differing levels of protection are definitely modeled.  At least in my experience it is very apparent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A standing joke is the official CM forces encyclopedia is named 'Google'. ^_^ Whether you're looking for vehicle armor stats or small arms specs or what a Marine corps boot sole looks like you'll find it in Google. Which is largely where much of CM's open-source info came from.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

A standing joke is the official CM forces encyclopedia is named 'Google'. ^_^ Whether you're looking for vehicle armor stats or small arms specs or what a Marine corps boot sole looks like you'll find it in Google. Which is largely where much of CM's open-source info came from.

I think MikeyD´s  got a Point 😁

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Armorgunner said:

Will do "Sir" And thankyou for the lesson 😀 (IanL to)

No problem. I am glad to have figured out what you were looking at. Sorry for not figuring it out sooner. I should pay some attention to that part of the UI I have begun to ignore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the CMSF2 BETA AAR I had an M1A1 hit a Challenger II on the front turret and that shot bounced.. however, fire from another Challenger II easily penetrated an M1A1.  There is much more beneath the skin of this game than you may realize @Armorgunner .

For an example, and this is WW2 related, but if you read the following post which is a quote from Charles:  CMBN BETA AAR - An Explanation you will see a comparison between the Sherman and the Pz IV and I think you, as an armor gunner, will appreciate the subtleties in armor protection, quality of armor plate, and angle of shot that this engine simulates.  The modern games, CMSF2 and CMBS go to the same lengths to simulate reality as closely as possible.

Bil

Edited by Bil Hardenberger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

In the CMSF2 BETA AAR I had an M1A1 hit a Challenger II on the front turret and that shot bounced.. however, fire from another Challenger II easily penetrated an M1A1.  There is much more beneath the skin of this game than you may realize @Armorgunner .

For an example, and this is WW2 related, but if you read the following post which is a quote from Charles:  CMBN BETA AAR - An Explanation you will see a comparison between the Sherman and the Pz IV and I think you, as an armor gunner, will appreciate the subtleties in armor protection, quality of armor plate, and angle of shot that this engine simulates.  The modern games, CMSF2 and CMBS go to the same lengths to simulate reality as closely as possible.

Bil

Thanks Bil Very good Reading. Yes i know there is very advanced shot vs armour calculation in CM games. Thats why I was frustrated. when the defences of the tanks in SF2 looked like they did. But sburke, and IanL gave me a satisfying explanation

Edited by Armorgunner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is actually helpful to the player.  If you were making tactical decisions based on the incremental difference between M1A1HC and M1A2s front turret armor, you would be making poor tactical decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×