Wehrmacht resilience vs. Dogface nervousness

[Josey Wales]

@Swervin11b a unit cannot become 'Broken' by suppression alone even if it was 'Pinned' for 20 minutes.

If you can answer these questions we can build a better picture to answer your question;

1. Was the crew in some sort of fortification e.g. foxhole, sandbags?

2. What were the crews Experience, Leadership & Motivation?

3. What was the morale state of the crew when 'Pinned'?

4. Did the gun crew suffer any casualties or did one of the other crews in their section/platoon suffer casualties?

Edited December 16, 2018 by Josey Wales

[Bulletpoint]

9 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

During a QB, a German AT gun withstood two 81mm medium, medium barrages, two batteries of 155mm firing a heavy, short barrage. Two buildings around him were destroyed. (Like 5 m around him). 

On top of that he was pinned (his bars maxed out) for a solid twenty minutes of game time by two M1919s firing from 250-300m away as well as two squads delivering enfilading fire. 

He’s still alive, the gun is not abandoned, and he has not broken yet. 

I've seen that many times. AT gun crews are often strangely impossible to rout. Not always, but they sure sometimes stick to their guns.

I think the reason is that sometimes, the gunner has "fanatic" morale. Even if you play with regular morale troops, individual soldiers can have other morale settings (a guy from Customer Service once told me this). So, if that guy happens to be the gunner, I think that means you have to physically neutralise him before he will leave the gun.

[Swervin11b]

-There’s only one crew member left alive. I believe two or three were dead. 

-He is as average as they come. Plain Wehrmacht, has regular experience, normal motivation, and is fit. (I bump up the Americans one all around. I’ve just found the Germans to be tough regardless of their settings). 

- He’s not in any type of fortification that I can see from looking at a photo I took. There is a trench to his left. He was immediately behind a house that’s now destroyed. Which is odd. He destroyed two Shermans before the house came down. Not sure how he had LOS? His gun is sticking through a doorway on his side but the far side was a wall. 

-I’m not sure of his morale. I want to say he’s nervous but will have to see it when I turn the comp on. 

-Whoever he is...He’s making his Fuhrer very proud indeed. 

He’s got two platoons converging on his position so I don’t figure he’ll last too much longer. 

If it makes any difference, he’s attached to a Fusilier Company. Those cats are really tough opponents and make for a challenging opponent with as much firepower as they have. 

This AT gun has actually caused two medium MG teams to go black on ammunition. But it’s gotten platoons within 50 and 100 meters of him. I’m going to run a Jeep up to the MGs’ locations and see if they can’t get a few boxes off of them. 

Helmut, you animal! 

[IICptMillerII]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but some of what you described in your original post is a known bug that is going to be fixed in an upcoming patch to all games. CMSF2 already has the patch applied.

I made a thread about the bug a while ago in the CMRT forum, and in it I included a video showing the perceived bug. Here's a link to that thread:

Hopefully the patch comes out soon. In the meantime I think the new infantry behavior in SF2 is fantastic, and as of right now I actually prefer it to the infantry behavior found in engine 3. 

As to the anti-tank gun example, I think that may just boil down to one of those extreme acts of bravery that occur in war. I'm currently reading through the Battle of the Bulge history A Time For Trumpets and just finished a passage that describes something very similar to what you experienced. On the first day of the German offensive, a US unit was in the process of being overrun. A 2nd lieutenant, named Wheeler, ordered his platoon to fall back while he stayed by himself with an anti-tank gun. The last anyone saw of Lt Wheeler was of a German assault gun firing point blank into his position. 

It appears that you may have found Lt Wheelers German equivalent. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by IICptMillerII

[Swervin11b]

If he survived that assault gun firing point blank, then we’d indeed have an equivalent. Helmut is one tough nut to crack. I’m thinking maybe his gun shroud is making a difference. 

He is at least pinned, so I’m going to root him out of there and not waste any more arty on him. Might just reboot the battle.

He is immediately adjacent to a house that’s been destroyed, a house that his gun barrel is poking through. At the very least he should be buried in rubble. There have been close to forty 155mm rounds and thirty 81mm rounds fired right on top of him. Bravery is one thing, but with that amount of firepower there shouldn’t be an inch around him that hasn’t been peppered with shrapnel. Even the best troops aren’t invulnerable. This one has to be a bug. If not, I’m going heavy on AT guns for any defensive scenarios 

cool test! They behaved as they should have, essentially. And that’s even in trenches 

Edited December 16, 2018 by Swervin11b

[Swervin11b]

“ cool test! They behaved as they should have, essentially. And that’s even in trenches” 

Got a little mixed up. Sorry about that. The breaking from cover and running into the open I see is being addressed.

The AT gun scrambled my brain. Good news is that he is now destroyed. Two armored infantry squads got to within 40 meters and took care of it. He’d only taken one casualty, it turns out. Now he’s taken more 

[Josey Wales]

I've just run some tests in the editor and gun crews do behave slightly differently from infantry when suffering from Combat Shock and Combat Stress. The tests were done with small arms so as not to confuse the results seen with the HE bug.

Typically infantry that is 'Rattled' will stay put unless they become 'Pinned' at which point they will auto evade. A static gun crew however will stay on their gun when 'Rattled & Pinned'.

Gun crews do seem to abandon the gun sometimes in the 'Shaken' & 'Panic' states, however there were times during the tests when 'Shaken' crews do not abandon the gun, and 'Panic'ked crews attempt to relocate the gun. The reason as to why a crew will choose to remain on the gun as opposed to abandoning it is not yet understood. I think it is too early to say it is a bug, it could just be a mechanic that is not yet well understood.

Edited December 16, 2018 by Josey Wales

[Swervin11b]

3 hours ago, Josey Wales said:

I've just run some tests in the editor and gun crews do behave slightly differently from infantry when suffering from Combat Shock and Combat Stress. The tests were done with small arms so as not to confuse the results seen with the HE bug.

Typically infantry that is 'Rattled' will stay put unless they become 'Pinned' at which point they will auto evade. A static gun crew however will stay on their gun when 'Rattled & Pinned'.

Gun crews do seem to abandon the gun sometimes in the 'Shaken' & 'Panic' states, however there were times during the tests when 'Shaken' crews do not abandon the gun, and 'Panic'ked crews attempt to relocate the gun. The reason as to why a crew will choose to remain on the gun as opposed to abandoning it is not yet understood. I think it is too early to say it is a bug, it could just be a mechanic that is not yet well understood.

Thanks for running some tests on that man. I wasn’t sure if it was just an isolated incident or a generality. I typically neutralize AT guns long before I come up close to them so it was odd to see 

[IICptMillerII]

10 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

“ cool test! They behaved as they should have, essentially. And that’s even in trenches” 

Got a little mixed up. Sorry about that. The breaking from cover and running into the open I see is being addressed.

The AT gun scrambled my brain. Good news is that he is now destroyed. Two armored infantry squads got to within 40 meters and took care of it. He’d only taken one casualty, it turns out. Now he’s taken more 

No worries. Glad to see infantry doing what they do best, closing with and destroying the enemy 

9 hours ago, Josey Wales said:

I've just run some tests in the editor and gun crews do behave slightly differently from infantry when suffering from Combat Shock and Combat Stress. The tests were done with small arms so as not to confuse the results seen with the HE bug.

Typically infantry that is 'Rattled' will stay put unless they become 'Pinned' at which point they will auto evade. A static gun crew however will stay on their gun when 'Rattled & Pinned'.

Gun crews do seem to abandon the gun sometimes in the 'Shaken' & 'Panic' states, however there were times during the tests when 'Shaken' crews do not abandon the gun, and 'Panic'ked crews attempt to relocate the gun. The reason as to why a crew will choose to remain on the gun as opposed to abandoning it is not yet understood. I think it is too early to say it is a bug, it could just be a mechanic that is not yet well understood.

My current understanding is that low starting morale and low veterancy (conscripts/green) are more likely to abandon an ATG after taking direct fire/casualties than a highly motivated veteran crew would be. Does this correlate to what you have observed in testing?

[Josey Wales]

3 hours ago, IICptMillerII said:

 My current understanding is that low starting morale and low veterancy (conscripts/green) are more likely to abandon an ATG after taking direct fire/casualties than a highly motivated veteran crew would be. Does this correlate to what you have observed in testing?

Yes that would tie in with what I have seen. I tested this with a Green crew and a Regular crew. The Green crew abandoned the gun more readily when 'Shaken' than the Regular crew which tended to stay on the gun. 

[Bulletpoint]

18 hours ago, Swervin11b said:

Even the best troops aren’t invulnerable. This one has to be a bug. If not, I’m going heavy on AT guns for any defensive scenarios 

You just learnt something. AT-guns are crazy tough in CM.

In a current game, I just saw an AT gun take a 75mm HE on the gun shield and keep fighting. And that was after getting pummelled by mortars and HE area fire for some time.

[George MC]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

You just learnt something. AT-guns are crazy tough in CM.

In a current game, I just saw an AT gun take a 75mm HE on the gun shield and keep fighting. And that was after getting pummelled by mortars and HE area fire for some time.

Hhmm.. Interesting, but yhat's not my experience. I'm testing a lot of stuff at the moment that involves dealing with sophisticated PAK fronts against armoured/mech units - mainly Panthers and SPW. Once I have a firm spot on a gun, it's dead pretty quick either by direct fire or spotted arty/mortar fire.

The challenge is spotting the bloody guns especially from around 400m plus (and depending on the type of gun, 57mm + stuff easier to sport, 45mm a PITA even at close range). At longer ranges, I was struggling to get any sort of ID whilst my armour was being pinged/KOd. I've found AT guns tougher to take out with dismounts as the gunners tend to make a stand, and often have some handy SMGs to hand. Tackling unsuppressed guns whether by tanks or infantry is never a good plan I've found!

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

Once I have a firm spot on a gun, it's dead pretty quick either by direct fire or spotted arty/mortar fire.

This is actually a mission where I have pretty good pre-battle intel. So several of these guns have been prep-fired from onboard 81mm mortars. I did knock out some, but there were several that surprised me by popping up later and starting firing. And that was after I had counted a couple of what seemed to be direct hits against their contact marker.

It's not really a rare occurrence either. I find it's quite common to see very stubborn AT guns hang on for a long time before getting knocked out or abandoning the gun.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[IICptMillerII]

10 hours ago, Josey Wales said:

Yes that would tie in with what I have seen. I tested this with a Green crew and a Regular crew. The Green crew abandoned the gun more readily when 'Shaken' than the Regular crew which tended to stay on the gun.

Thanks for confirming! 

It seems that the average behavior is pretty realistic to me, and every now and then one gets some "combat nuance" thrown in. One thing CM does really well is simulating the unexpected that occurs in reality, such as an ATG stubbornly sticking it out despite the punishment, etc. Its always a bit frustrating when its an enemy ATG that appears to be blessed, but I think its rare enough to not be a bug, or unwanted behavior overall. 

[General Liederkranz]

On 12/16/2018 at 12:42 PM, Josey Wales said:

Typically infantry that is 'Rattled' will stay put unless they become 'Pinned' at which point they will auto evade. A static gun crew however will stay on their gun when 'Rattled & Pinned'.

This is an interesting finding--thank you for doing the tests. It seems to me this could make sense, given that gun crews in CM can't temporarily abandon their guns, as they might in real life, to take cover in nearby buildings, trenches, dugouts, etc. One could think of this endurance as an abstraction of them doing that, then jumping back on the gun when suppression slackens off. By contrast, if infantry runs for cover in that situation, the game can literally show it happening and we can order them back up again when the situation is safer.

[BletchleyGeek]

I think these slightly different reactions for  AT crews are in the game to some extent to compensate the fact that if the crew "bails out" the gun cannot be recrewed. So you don't want them to run away - making the crew braver to incoming fire - and the engine possibly grants the crew some magic resistances - essentially "saving throws" against spotting checks, fragments etc. - in exchange for the lack of flexibility and to avoid them being plastered like flies caught in sticky paper. As @George MC says though, I have never found an ATG hard to kill, provided that I spotted it first

Crews in general haved different behaviours than infantrymen. Somebody observed that truck drivers perform generally much worse than their infantryman counterpart (that followed from a discussion around a bug test being invalid because it was using drivers rather than first line troops). AFV crews also have or used to have slightly different behaviours, fighting like panthers with rabies sometimes (that may have been a bug fixed years ago).

Great thread @Swervin11b plenty of great contributions here.

Edited December 22, 2018 by BletchleyGeek

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

AFV crews also have or used to have slightly different behaviours, fighting like panthers with rabies sometimes (that may have been a bug fixed years ago).

I think that's still the case. Problem being that

1) enemy troops start firing at exiting vehicle crews before they actually exit, which means all the first shots get defleted by the armour of that vehicle - when the crews actually exit they catch their foes in mid-reload

2) panicked bailing troops are happy to stop and fire with good accuracy while running for their lives

3) pistols are really effective at close range (which I guess is realistic, but it adds to the problem when close assaulting a vehicle or bunker, because of the above)

[BletchleyGeek]

I have myself witnessed that on one of the bigger CW armour heavy scenarios, a really long time ago. I haven't played battles recently that had both  lots of armour and my infantry had the chance to get close to unhorsed crews.