First QB map creation update thread

[homewrecker]

Hey everyone,

I've attached a link to a QB map I am working on for Black Sea.  It is for company sized urban infantry battles.  Also there is a link to a google drive folder that I will update as I go along.  Should make it easy for anyone to see how its going, and avoid the file upload size limits of the forums.   Upon completion of this I would like to try my hand at AI plans to make this into a scenario.

So far, I have mostly completed the construction of the 2 main objectives and some of the areas surrounding them  The buildings have all of their interior connections so infantry can make their way through as needed.  I have taken some creative privilege with the objective buildings and a few other things so far.  Mainly with placement of the government center to be more inline with the police station towards the middle between the two deployment zones.  The other was the omission of the large building on the eastern side of the map in the attached image.  This is a huge basketball court complex I just can't see a reason to include.   I will either sub it out with a smaller building or turn it into some wooded terrain.   If anyone has other ideas on that I am open to them. 

Also made it to changing some of the elevations before placing buildings, had to fidget with it a little after placement, but so far it looks good and at least is similar to how the land lays in real life. 

My plan for the middle of the map, where it gets quite congested, is to omit a few of those buildings, creating some extra alley ways for maneuver.  Maybe creating groups of 2 or 3 buildings with some room in between.  Both sides will have covered approaches to one of the objectives via wooded areas.  I'm hoping this creates a need for the middle to be fought over in H2H if someone were to give that a go.

Deployment zones have been placed north and south.  This was mostly just me checking out placing them. Will probably move them to the NE and SW corners, mostly to force the issue of controlling the middle for direct approach to the objective furthest from either sides deployment zone.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1scLEy00dDlNoxBER9JTOUtDrVDe9xala

Thanks to everyone who gave pointers and links to useful reference materials, there is so much out there it is almost overload.  I'm gonna keep truckin on this.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Looking good. 

You've certainly jumped in at the deep end with an urban map, it has a few unique challenges of its own.....I've got into the habit of locking elevations on clusters of buildings (& some adjacent tiles) to ensure that doorways between modular sections remain functional.  It can take a while to find the correct solution for a given area and as @Combatintman has pointed out, you will usually have to compromise to a greater or lesser extent in order to get the optimum blend of playability & appearance.

[homewrecker]

Got a progress update for yall.  More or less done adding buildings and such to the map, just need to add a few things to the south side of the map, throw out some flavor objects here and there.  Uploaded more screenshots to the google drive folder.  Also need to revisit building connections and make sure everything is good there. The shot with the setup zones is just a rough estimate of how i would like to set them up.  Noticed i had slightly favored red on the distance to the objectives.  Guess I can artificially mitigate this by bumping out the blue deployment area a little bit.  Also uploaded a copy of the map to the drive folder if anyone wants to check it out and throw any suggestions my way.  I'm sure I overlooked something.

[Combatintman]

Great progress.

Just looking at the bushes on the border of what looks like a park towards the bottom RH corner of the map. If you want them in a nice uniform line (which I suspect is the case) you need click the button in the foliage menu that has a picture of a bush with a grid on it. This will automatically place the bush/tree in the middle of the action spot.

I see you have quite a few balconies, while they might be present on the real life buildings, I'd give some thought as to whether you really want them as, if you aren't aware, balconies are death traps.

 

[homewrecker]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Great progress.

Just looking at the bushes on the border of what looks like a park towards the bottom RH corner of the map. If you want them in a nice uniform line (which I suspect is the case) you need click the button in the foliage menu that has a picture of a bush with a grid on it. This will automatically place the bush/tree in the middle of the action spot.

I see you have quite a few balconies, while they might be present on the real life buildings, I'd give some thought as to whether you really want them as, if you aren't aware, balconies are death traps.

 

Yeah the neatening and tidying up I will do in the next week.  Also I'm sure some things will need to be tweaked as i playtest the map, looking for pathfinding issues and such.  I did clean up a few elevation issues that were affecting modular building connections.

I should know better on the balconies from my tiem spent playong shock force.  Always got shredded if I happlessly sent troops onto balconies.  That will be remedied.

I do have a question though.  I put a structure on the map that is supposed to be a parking deck.  I used balconies to give it this look.  Is there a better alternative? 

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, homewrecker said:

Yeah the neatening and tidying up I will do in the next week.  Also I'm sure some things will need to be tweaked as i playtest the map, looking for pathfinding issues and such.  I did clean up a few elevation issues that were affecting modular building connections.

I should know better on the balconies from my tiem spent playong shock force.  Always got shredded if I happlessly sent troops onto balconies.  That will be remedied.

I do have a question though.  I put a structure on the map that is supposed to be a parking deck.  I used balconies to give it this look.  Is there a better alternative? 

If 'Parking Deck' is American for multi-storey car park, balconies is a neat little idea. If it isn't then ignore the rest of this post because it will be gibberish.

My guess is that this structure is in the right foreground of your Screenshot (12).png and the effect that you have created there looks quite good using balconies with the single long rectangular window. Another option would be to use balconies and CTRL click the outer wall to the point just before the wall disappears completely. This will leave you with an open side and the remains of the corner uprights which loosely resemble vertical concrete pillars. It doesn't look perfect because the 'concrete pillars' are not straight but it is about as close as you'll get. Ideally you will need to construct the car park by joining a few buildings together to get the multiple pillar look.

Somebody else might have a better idea. @LongLeftFlankis a whizz at modern urban maps:

(thread here):

and @snake_eyewas working on a pretty swept up map for CMBS that had a multi-storey car park (thread here: 

Hope this helps.

[homewrecker]

16 hours ago, Combatintman said:

If 'Parking Deck' is American for multi-storey car park, balconies is a neat little idea. If it isn't then ignore the rest of this post because it will be gibberish.

My guess is that this structure is in the right foreground of your Screenshot (12).png and the effect that you have created there looks quite good using balconies with the single long rectangular window. Another option would be to use balconies and CTRL click the outer wall to the point just before the wall disappears completely. This will leave you with an open side and the remains of the corner uprights which loosely resemble vertical concrete pillars. It doesn't look perfect because the 'concrete pillars' are not straight but it is about as close as you'll get. Ideally you will need to construct the car park by joining a few buildings together to get the multiple pillar look.

@snake_eye

Hope this helps.

Yep, sure is (Boot/Trunk, Trolley/Cart haha).   I tried having the wall removed completely, I didn't like how it looked.  I do prefer function over form though.  Balconies not working as cover, can they work as concealment?  Say for scout units using it for observation?  I'm going to fiddle with it a bit before work, while i take out the other balconies on the map. 

[homewrecker]

21 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Great progress.

Just looking at the bushes on the border of what looks like a park towards the bottom RH corner of the map. If you want them in a nice uniform line (which I suspect is the case) you need click the button in the foliage menu that has a picture of a bush with a grid on it. This will automatically place the bush/tree in the middle of the action spot.

I see you have quite a few balconies, while they might be present on the real life buildings, I'd give some thought as to whether you really want them as, if you aren't aware, balconies are death traps.

 

Made some of the changes you suggested, removed most of the balconies, and added some uniformity to some of the areas where it makes sense.  Also added some buildings/walls to the map where it was a little naked.  Removed some connected independent buildings, fences around some houses.  I've uploaded the updated version to the drive folder.  I'm going to be out for 5 days to go camping.  I'm going to try and make a basic AI plan for red when i get back so play testing can begin.  The basics seem pretty easy, need to read up on the more complex aspects of planning.

[snake_eye]

Thanks Combatintman for mentioning my work. The map can be played H2H and or QB. It is available here :

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-black-sea/cm-black-sea-add-ons-maps/__trashed/

If that can help you here are some shots of the airport multi stories facilities with damages done to it and an overall view of the map area.

 

 

 

 

 

[Combatintman]

5 hours ago, snake_eye said:

Thanks Combatintman for mentioning my work.

Easily done mon ami - your work speaks for itself.

[snake_eye]

I forgot to mention that the WIP area seen on the map has been done at the time of its release on Fewgoodmen.

[homewrecker]

23 hours ago, snake_eye said:

Thanks Combatintman for mentioning my work. The map can be played H2H and or QB. It is available here :

http://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-black-sea/cm-black-sea-add-ons-maps/__trashed/

If that can help you here are some shots of the airport multi stories facilities with damages done to it and an overall view of the map area.

 

 

 

 

 

Have loaded up your map before to check it out.  What a monster!  Beautiful map man, nice work.

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, splendid work here.

I guess the next step would be to ask: what kinds of combat actions might we expect to take place here?

1.  A raid or ambush by commandos or uncons could readily be envisioned, for all sorts of reasons.

2. A coup de main by regular forces to secure an airbase is also plausible, though also problematic in a theatre bristling with modern antiaircraft weapons. In a CMSF type setting, no problem.

3. If it's regular forces dug in to defend against other regular forces, then why here? What's the rationale for establishing a MLR or strongpoint in a built up area, rather than open country? No doubt one could develop reasons (denial of facilities to the enemy for either military or political reasons, sectarian divide in the adjoining area, etc.). But that will have material impacts on the scheme and objectives of the combatants, so it's worth thinking about. 

In general, it's hard to envision Aachen or Stalingrad type fights these days involving modern mech forces on *both* sides. Uncons prefer built up areas because dense cover and concealment negates the enemy's superior ranged firepower, a la Mosul, Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozny etc. Would the same apply to a SovBloc type mech force facing superior Western tanks and airpower? (It didn't seem to work for the Iraqi mech forces in 2003...) 

Anyway, good luck with the project!

[homewrecker]

11 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Yes, splendid work here.

I guess the next step would be to ask: what kinds of combat actions might we expect to take place here?

1.  A raid or ambush by commandos or uncons could readily be envisioned, for all sorts of reasons.

2. A coup de main by regular forces to secure an airbase is also plausible, though also problematic in a theatre bristling with modern antiaircraft weapons. In a CMSF type setting, no problem.

3. If it's regular forces dug in to defend against other regular forces, then why here? What's the rationale for establishing a MLR or strongpoint in a built up area, rather than open country? No doubt one could develop reasons (denial of facilities to the enemy for either military or political reasons, sectarian divide in the adjoining area, etc.). But that will have material impacts on the scheme and objectives of the combatants, so it's worth thinking about. 

In general, it's hard to envision Aachen or Stalingrad type fights these days involving modern mech forces on *both* sides. Uncons prefer built up areas because dense cover and concealment negates the enemy's superior ranged firepower, a la Mosul, Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozny etc. Would the same apply to a SovBloc type mech force facing superior Western tanks and airpower? (It didn't seem to work for the Iraqi mech forces in 2003...) 

Anyway, good luck with the project!

Great questions, some had occurred to me.  Others hadn't.  I have uploaded a standalone scenario version of the map to the google drive folder in the OP.  With basic AI plans.  I've played through a few times and made some force/AI plan adjustments.  What started out as a meeting engagement evolved into a blue attack scenario.  There are Russian recon units already in the area ahead of the government building objectives that blue must seize.  Seemed like a better way to get the action started early was to have Russian recon ambush US infantry maneuvering to the objectives.  Red has reinforcements on map as the scenario begins and they make their way to reinforce the recon forces. The problem I'm having is getting the AI to get their reinforcing infantry into position quick enough to make a difference, and without putting themselves in compromising positions.    Also, would it be a good idea to put the company/platoon HQ's in different AI Plan groups to give them 'safer' advance orders? I noticed they were pretty easy to pick off and generally led the charge in. 

[Combatintman]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 6:19 PM, homewrecker said:

 The problem I'm having is getting the AI to get their reinforcing infantry into position quick enough to make a difference, and without putting themselves in compromising positions.    Also, would it be a good idea to put the company/platoon HQ's in different AI Plan groups to give them 'safer' advance orders? I noticed they were pretty easy to pick off and generally led the charge in. 

Your eyes aren't deceiving you, the AI tends to make HQ units lead from the front. If you have enough AI slots then yes, it is generally a good idea to have you HQs separate from your manoeuvre elements. If you're running out of slots then I generally group my HQ element with the trail section in the platoon scheme of manoeuvre. The trick of course is to synchronise the various group movement times so that your HQ always remains a tactical bound behind.

[homewrecker]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

Your eyes aren't deceiving you, the AI tends to make HQ units lead from the front. If you have enough AI slots then yes, it is generally a good idea to have you HQs separate from your manoeuvre elements. If you're running out of slots then I generally group mNoy HQ element with the trail section in the platoon scheme of manoeuvre. The trick of course is to synchronise the various group movement times so that your HQ always remains a tactical bound behind.

Definitely going to do this in the future when I am tight on AI slots.  Fortunately I reworked the redfor OOB and came up with a pretty solid result.  Cutting them down numerically because a full infantry company reinforcing wasn't necessary for the fight to be brutal with the Bn recon company starting in defensive positions.   Learning triggers helped a lot with the appearance of AI reactions and timing of movement.  As far as units go there is only veterancies to adjust.  

I will be uploading an updated version in a few days to the Google drive folder.  Have a briefing ready now.  Been struggling with the briefing graphics templates but mainly due to lack of experience in editing such things amd realizing some support weapons aren't represented.  Slowly working it out.