CMSF irregular thoughts

[domfluff]

Second observation - you have far more control over the Fighter groups than the Combatant groups in Quick Battle selections, at least in terms of configuring options.

The combatants have configurable HQ units, so you can control the makeup of your core weapons, at least - MGs, RPGs and the like, but the rest of them just have whatever they have.

[Vet 0369]

8 hours ago, Sublime said:

Thanks and thanks for the awesome story. Jeez man you had already been in country and back and the m14 was still standard?

Much respect

Sorry about giving the wrong impression here. The ambush setup was basically standard operating procedure for Marine Infantry that everyone in the Marine Corps practiced at least once a year. When I got back from overseas in 1971, I was stationed at MCAS Cherry Point , NC. I was a hydraulics/pneumatics mechanic on F-4B, F-4J, and RF-4B Phantom IIs. As Marines, even though we weren't infantry, we were still required to maintain our basic combat skills. The incident I described took place during regular required training (it was a required training  for promotion). Our TO&E rifle in the Air Wing was the M-14. All of the M-16s were being sent to Vietnam for the Grunts. When I was stationed in Iwakuni, Japan from 1970 - 1971, my TO&E weapon was an M3A1 ".45 cal Greasegun." We carried a Winchester 12 gauge trench gun when walking guard on the flight line because the shot wouldn't damage the airplanes. I went into the infantry in the USMC Reserves as a weapons section leader of M-60 machine guns, M2 60mm mortars, and anti-tank assault with M202 multishot rocket launchers. That's when they changed my primary Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) from F-4 phantom mechanic to primary MOS 0369, Infantry Small Unit Leader. I liked the M-14, but the first time I qualified in the reserves with an M-16, I had a higher qualifying score than I ever did with the M-14. It was probably because of the recoil of the .308 caliber vs 5.56mm, and the fact that we qualified with the M-14 at 200, 300, and 500 yds, and only at 200 and 300 with the M-16.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Vet 0369
Addition.

[Sublime]

On 12/5/2018 at 4:51 PM, Vet 0369 said:

Sorry about giving the wrong impression here. The ambush setup was basically standard operating procedure for Marine Infantry that everyone in the Marine Corps practiced at least once a year. When I got back from overseas in 1971, I was stationed at MCAS Cherry Point , NC. I was a hydraulics/pneumatics mechanic on F-4B, F-4J, and RF-4B Phantom IIs. As Marines, even though we weren't infantry, we were still required to maintain our basic combat skills. The incident I described took place during regular required training (it was a required training  for promotion). Our TO&E rifle in the Air Wing was the M-14. All of the M-16s were being sent to Vietnam for the Grunts. When I was stationed in Iwakuni, Japan from 1970 - 1971, my TO&E weapon was an M3A1 ".45 cal Greasegun." We carried a Winchester 12 gauge trench gun when walking guard on the flight line because the shot wouldn't damage the airplanes. I went into the infantry in the USMC Reserves as a weapons section leader of M-60 machine guns, M2 60mm mortars, and anti-tank assault with M202 multishot rocket launchers. That's when they changed my primary Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) from F-4 phantom mechanic to primary MOS 0369, Infantry Small Unit Leader. I liked the M-14, but the first time I qualified in the reserves with an M-16, I had a higher qualifying score than I ever did with the M-14. It was probably because of the recoil of the .308 caliber vs 5.56mm, and the fact that we qualified with the M-14 at 200, 300, and 500 yds, and only at 200 and 300 with the M-16.

Oh man you dont need to apologize and I dont feel misled.  I still have a fu*kton of respect for your and everyone elses service. I never served after all.

Thats cool about the phantoms, my father was a WSO on F4Ds for the USAF.  He ended up getting into intel after being grounded for eyesight issues in the mid 80s and retired as a Lt Col at Maxwell AFB working at the air war college.

Thats a trip about using the greasegun just like you would potentially have 30 years earlier. What was your impression of the greasegun? Did you like the "pig" the M60?  It seems a lot of stuff Ive read makes it seem it wasnt popular or felt it needed to be replaced in late cold war, but in Vietnam it seems to have been liked? (Or was it simply the mg they had and anecdotal accounts are biased because whose going to badmouth any gun that saves your hide?)

Also being lazy since I could simply google but the m202 Im assuming is that boxy rocket launcher that had it looks like 4 tubes?

Ive always found it interesting how the US casually disregarded the ban on shotguns per a treaty that IIRC preceded rhe Geneva Accords.  Though I also STR it being pointed out to me the US didmt sign the first treaty.

 

If I may ask sir:

What was the scuttlebutt around base about Vietnam? As in how did your average Marine where you were feel about it by 71?

How bad was the drug use in the military OUTSIDE of Nam?

Were you guys most worried about the Russians, Chinese, or N Koreans? Or really all of them and it depended on what was going on?

Really any memories or info you have Id treasure, just because you werent in Nam doesnt mean anything to me. Im very interested in the US military and how it turned itself around in the 70s to 80s also because though the reasons why are different I feel our military may have to go through a similar healing process if we ever get out of the Middle East. ( seriously, I never thought some forever war out of a dystopian novel would happen in my life but I can easily see Afghanistan just never ending)

O/T but Vietnam stories always make me shake my head when I hear about some of the crazy ROE stuff. Like accounts from Hue during the Tet offensive would remark the NVA would sit and fight even if US armor came up because they quickly realized we.d been ordered not to use main gun fire. Apparently though when those 4 barreled recoilless rifle TDs, the Ontos IIRC (with the Greek nickname I cant remember. Oh ya Ontos. Or something) came the NVA would scramble. Somehow tank main gun was a no go but recoilless rifle is ok. Odd. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Sublime

[Vet 0369]

58 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Oh man you dont need to apologize and I dont feel misled.  I still have a fu*kton of respect for your and everyone elses service. I never served after all.

Thats cool about the phantoms, my father was a WSO on F4Ds for the USAF.  He ended up getting into intel after being grounded for eyesight issues in the mid 80s and retired as a Lt Col at Maxwell AFB working at the air war college.

Thats a trip about using the greasegun just like you would potentially have 30 years earlier. What was your impression of the greasegun? Did you like the "pig" the M60?  It seems a lot of stuff Ive read makes it seem it wasnt popular or felt it needed to be replaced in late cold war, but in Vietnam it seems to have been liked? (Or was it simply the mg they had and anecdotal accounts are biased because whose going to badmouth any gun that saves your hide?)

The M3A1 is extremely simple. The receiver is stamped sheet metal (like the Sten gun) with a lever to draw back the bolt, the barrel is attached to the receiver with a knurled threaded nut, and the bolt is simply a block. The M3 didn't have the cocking lever, just two finger holes in the bolt to draw it back (or maybe the other way around, this old mind tends to confuse those things sometimes). It was a blow back action like the Thompson. I got to fire it only once, and that was only because I was friends with the Squadron Armorer.

The M-60 is heavy, but unlike many medium machine guns, you could fire it from the hip or shoulder while advancing, and from the Bipod or tripod when stationary. If your platoon had an M-60 section attached, most, if not all of the Marines would carry two 200 round  boxes of ammo for the gun. Two hundred rounds of 7.62 NATO (along with your basic allotment (BA) of 180 7.62 rounds for a M-14, or 240 5.56 rounds for an M-16, a couple of claymore mines, grenades for the grenadier, and a couple of rounds for M2 60mm mortars if they are attached), gets heavy after a while. The grunts loved the fire power of the pigs, and there's no more beautiful sound than two M-60s "talking" (gun 1 fires a 3-5 round burst, then gun 2 does the same, alternating back and forth) on the line.

It was a pretty dangerous job though. An Aerospace Engineer I worked with was on a Marine gun squad in Vietnam. He was an ammo man. On one assault across a paddy to a tree  line, he lost 3/4 of the gun team. He picked up the pig after the gunner was hit, and continued the assault. When they reached the tree line, the fighting was so close that he threw a hand grenade and an NVA soldier pushed it back. There are four men on a gun team. He was the only one who made it to the tree line. Just like in CM, a gun team was always a high priority target.

yes, the the M202 was the bulky, four tube launcher, but even though I had an anti-tank assault team in my weapons section, we never saw one. I actually asked the same question about point men with shotguns when I was in. The answer I received was that the treaty banned shotguns with BRASS cartridges, and the points had standard civilian plastic cartridges (we did use brass for our guard duty trench guns though because that wasn't considered "combat use."

As far as I can remember it wasn't talked about as a big deal. In 1970, in Iwakuni, Japan, headquarters required that you wait 180 days before requesting transfer to Vietnam. Then, in 1971, they did away with split tours completely and wouldn't let anyone transfer. Active duty for Airwingers was four years because of the training costs. Standard infantry was two or three years active with two or one subsequent years in the Reserve.

i'd say that drug use was pretty much the same as in the civilian general population. It got pretty heavy in 72-73 though. The Marine Corps set up a "drug exempt" program where a user/addict could turn himself in for treatment and not be charged. That actually worked pretty well.

Who were we worried most about? We are Marines! We don't worry about anyone! Yea though we walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, we shall fear no evil, FOR WE ARE THE MEANEST MOTHERS IN THE VALLEY!

Rules of engagement (ROE) are almost always political and stupid.

you are correct about the ontos.

i have long felt that many of the issues with vets readjusting to society are the result of how fast they are reintegrated into society. After WWI, WWII, and Korea, they returned by boat, and had some time to come down while on the ship. From Vietnam on, they literally walk out of combat and onto an airplane that has them back in the States in mere hours with no opportunity to "wind down." When I flew back from Japan after a year, I took a bus into San Fransisco to fly back to Boston. I almost screamed at the bus driver to drive on the left-side of the road, and couldn't figure out why things didn't look right.mthen it struck me, I could read the billboards! Just think of the readjustments necessary to reintegrate from combat!

Why are we still in the Middle East? It's all about the Balance of Power, and NOTHING MORE

 

Edited December 7, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Sublime]

Thanks man and thanks for your service.

[Vet 0369]

42 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Thanks man and thanks for your service.

Thank you, but no thanks necessary. I felt, and still feel the this country has given me so much, and serving in the military and later 20 years of Federal Government service was a small payment. There's a reason we're called Public Servents. Others repay as they see fit through volunteering in food kitchens, working with Vets and the disadvantaged, or however else they feel the call. The best way to repay is to Vote!

[A Canadian Cat]

58 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

The best way to repay is to Vote!

My favour line today - longer really. I'd up vote your post but I gave away my allotment already today.

[Vet 0369]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

My favour line today - longer really. I'd up vote your post but I gave away my allotment already today.

LOL, thank you, but my son beats me hands down. He turned 18 in High School, registered to vote and for the Selective Service, and has voted in every election since. I think I might have missed a couple because I didn't have an absentee ballot. I love it when I can say to someone "Why are you complaining about the election results? You didn't even vote! You have no right to complain." And we don't even have to worry about bombs or attacks at the polling places or obviously and clearly rigged results!

[Vet 0369]

4 hours ago, Sublime said:

Thanks man and thanks for your service.

I meant to say a bit more about service earlier, but it slipped my mind while on my soapbox. I know some of your background from your previous posts, and I just have to say that a forgotten and unrecognized segment of military service is the military dependent. THEY have no real say in their lot, and have to go where ever the service man or woman goes. It can be a horribly disruptive life and can cause many psychological issues that go unrecognized and untreated. It is really a shame that more is not done to help ease the pain and stress of being separated than is being done, as NOTHING is being done! THEY WHO WAIT ALSO SERVE.

Thank you for YOUR service!

Edited December 7, 2018 by Vet 0369

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

I meant to say a bit more about service earlier, but it slipped my mind while on my soapbox. I know some of your background from your previous posts, and I just have to say that a forgotten and unrecognized segment of military service is the military dependent. THEY have no real say in their lot, and have to go where ever the service man or woman goes. It can be a horribly disruptive life and can cause many psychological issues that go unrecognized and untreated. It is really a shame that more is not done to help ease the pain and stress of being separated than is being done, as NOTHING is being done! THEY WHO WAIT ALSO SERVE.

Thank you for YOUR service!

I was disappointed with the actual portrayal of combat in the long road home as it didn’t really accurately depict the battlefield. A nitpick, but I have to say I think they did a real good job showing the stress on the families. Martha Raddatz apparently developed a really close relationship with not just the men in the unit but their families as well. Rare in a tv show. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by sburke

[Sublime]

Hey I appreciate it man but as a dependent, when I was a dependent I got the light side really. It was all stories or just the results of f*** stuff that happened to my father that caused problems, but I never had to sit by why he deployed into combat, I was too young to realize how utterly doomed me and everyone else in West Germany was if a war started.

Ive dangerously risked derailing the thread enough, I really appreciate your generosity and kindness.

 

PS: Since I cant leave well enough alone : I feel the most for my mom. She left Boston by enlisting in the late 70s to escape a really messed up home and met my Dad in Spain.  She ended up marrying him when her enlistment was up. She really bore the brunt of the endless moves and the worst of my fathers PTSD, abuse, and of course the worst of the intrusiveness of "The Service, or the Career" not only as the instituition itself but also for my fathers moral failing ( IMO ) to constantly choose his career over his family at every turn and I say this not in a time of national emergency and war, nor even say an colonial war, no just peacetime constant freaking out and talks of below the zone promotions fitness reports and what happened last night has to be a secret because he.ll lose his clearance and job if not.  Of course I experienced a lot of it too, and I have to say when friends my age started getting blown up in the Middle East and or coming back traumatized I realized how pathetic my fathers drunken bemoaning that he never got to fight the enemy face to face, or later that he had to retire as a Lt Col and didbt make Full Bird ( I mean the shame right? :Eye roll: )

I know a lot of people will probably see this as a bit much or airing dirty laundry but its just real and unfortunately waaaay too many other military brats I knew had similar problems at home vis a vis chaos fueled by booze and stress from the military.  In a weird way in hindsight my life seems to have been destined to have been constantly around the military and interested in it; but also resentful AF about it ( divorced parents, didnt goto the same school for more than 1 year from 4th to 10th grade- to be fair the military didnt have anything to do with 3 of those changes; never feeling like I was "from" anywhere. In America thats always the 2nd question people ask it seems, and in Boston it seems to define who you were. It probably seems silly to lots of people here though ) -and hating it for what I felt it did to my family.

Edited December 8, 2018 by Sublime

[Vet 0369]

59 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Hey I appreciate it man but as a dependent, when I was a dependent I got the light side really. It was all stories or just the results of f*** stuff that happened to my father that caused problems, but I never had to sit by why he deployed into combat, I was too young to realize how utterly doomed me and everyone else in West Germany was if a war started.

Ive dangerously risked derailing the thread enough, I really appreciate your generosity and kindness.

 

PS: Since I cant leave well enough alone : I feel the most for my mom. She left Boston by enlisting in the late 70s to escape a really messed up home and met my Dad in Spain.  She ended up marrying him when her enlistment was up. She really bore the brunt of the endless moves and the worst of my fathers PTSD, abuse, and of course the worst of the intrusiveness of "The Service, or the Career" not only as the instituition itself but also for my fathers moral failing ( IMO ) to constantly choose his career over his family at every turn and I say this not in a time of national emergency and war, nor even say an colonial war, no just peacetime constant freaking out and talks of below the zone promotions fitness reports and what happened last night has to be a secret because he.ll lose his clearance and job if not.  Of course I experienced a lot of it too, and I have to say when friends my age started getting blown up in the Middle East and or coming back traumatized I realized how pathetic my fathers drunken bemoaning that he never got to fight the enemy face to face, or later that he had to retire as a Lt Col and didbt make Full Bird ( I mean the shame right? :Eye roll: )

I know a lot of people will probably see this as a bit much or airing dirty laundry but its just real and unfortunately waaaay too many other military brats I knew had similar problems at home vis a vis chaos fueled by booze and stress from the military.  In a weird way in hindsight my life seems to have been destined to have been constantly around the military and interested in it; but also resentful AF about it ( divorced parents, didnt goto the same school for more than 1 year from 4th to 10th grade- to be fair the military didnt have anything to do with 3 of those changes; never feeling like I was "from" anywhere. In America thats always the 2nd question people ask it seems, and in Boston it seems to define who you were. It probably seems silly to lots of people here though ) -and hating it for what I felt it did to my family.

I totally understand mi amigo. Most people don't realize or understand the effects of being a military dependent. A young friend of my son graduated from Virginia Military Institute (VMI) and listed me as a reference on his application for Marine officer candidate. Just after I finished filling out the USMC for with my observations, his father told me that the young man was engaged. I encouraged his father to try to get him to rethink marriage as it would be so difficult on their relationship. He married anywar, and was divorced within two years.

i don't believe anyone in a "highly-mobile" service should marry until after their initial service period, but that's just my highly, uneducated opinion.

And I agree, I've helped to derail this thread in a major way, and apologize for that. But, at least we aren't bitching and complaining about problems associated with a game. We now return this thread to your control.

Now let's return to Revere Beach; Land of Bikinis, High-Heels, and Big Hair

Edited December 8, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Sublime]

Ha not a lot going on at the beach now this time of year. Have a good one

[domfluff]

So the spotting has changed significantly in CMSF 2. This is with Very Heavy civilian density, and combatants Move-ing.

[domfluff]

...to the extent that I'm not sure what Civilian density is actually doing anymore.

[Sublime]

This is the one issue I always really had with civvie density. I always thought it was a great idea but killed immersion because it seemed to float back into x1 territory by having something so abstracted it was totally on your imagination to picture the work it was doing, and IMO like the old 3 man placeholders for real squads and firepower values instead of each gun this destroyed immersion.

The other issue I had was simply the issue of how can you tell whats safe or what heavy even looks like? Obviously we cant model thousands of civvies - I dont have some neat answer to this question but it always ended up going unused by me because even if it was changed my brain simply would forget and see empty streets unless I was sitting there in 1 sesh really.

[domfluff]

I agree that the abstraction isn't ideal, but it does allow you to do things which are tactically relevant and interesting - and if it doesn't have *any* effect right now, then I imagine this is a bug.

[Sublime]

As I said I dont have a solution to it at all. Of course its an option, its already there, so I feel like why not. It simply just isnt a feature I personally ever really end up selecting.  In a way, though in a much more noticeable to me manner, its similar to the EW setting in BS. I muddled with it a few battles than it just sat on off.

[domfluff]

EW at least has a predictable effect, and costs you points in Quick Battles (although it would be nice to be able to purchase it outside of the setup screen).

Civilian Density though is definitely a setting that exists, but it doesn't seem to have any game effect in CMSF 2 - or if it does, it's not at all clear what it does.

I will keep testing.

[domfluff]

Civilian density seems to be working as per CMSF 1 with regards to combatants again. The patch notes only mention spies, but this seems to be functional as it was, which is really great. Testing can resume!

[domfluff]

In fact, it seems stronger. 

Move commands before would hide them, but Bluefor would shout out "enemy infantry sighted", even without contact markers.

Quick commands before would reveal them.

With some quick testing, Move commands now prompt no shout-outs. Importantly, Quick commands do, but *do not reveal the uncons*, which means the AI can now use Civilian density. This is huge.

Needs more precise testing for distances, etc, since I imagine Quick will be spotted from further range, but this is massive.

[domfluff]

VBIED, Combatants and Spies have civ density stealth, as per CMSF 1. The rest do no (so, technicals, taxis, fighters)

Quick moves now *do* have stealth, which is a massive change. They will generate sporadic spotting contacts and shout-outs, but they can still quick move up very close with an RPG, so this is a serious threat now.

[Zveroboy1]

I tried a quick test scenario with combatants. I gave the blue side a quick attack plan and was playing the uncons myself, trying to see how easy it was to set up an ambush. I gave blue air support for **** and giggles and the apache seemed to have zero problem spotting them. It slaughtered them actually. It was a veteran apache and the civilian density was only sparse but it didn't seem to be affected at all.

[domfluff]

Yeah, stealth doesn't seem to protect against air support.

[domfluff]

On the correct usage of Spies.

Poor C2 is something that comes with the territory, but uncons do get a major advantage in the form of civilian agents who can blend into the local population. Here are a couple of thoughts of how to make the best use of them.

These spotting contact can be spread by runners, but are more efficiently spread by creating networks of three man spy teams, within shouting distance of each other, combined with horizontal sharing between these teams.

A very inefficient example below, to illustrate the point:


 

In this case, team 3 has a node which is able to horizontally share to the HQ units of the three uncon groups - these will run back into C2 with their groups and share their contacts where appropriate.