Newbie DAR/AAR: ncc1701e vs JoMc67D

[Bil Hardenberger]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Did you change opinion on this? On your blog, you wrote:

At my age I forget half of what I write   

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Or maybe it's more that when you play the US side, you split off the small scout teams (because they can divide in three teams), and with the Germans you more often split half and half (because they can usually only divide in two teams)?

Obviously I am thinking "German" as our Trekkie is playing the Germans... splitting off a two-man scout team from a German Squad really leaves you with a far less flexible unit... also from my blog:

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NOTE:  In CM the US Squad can break down into three teams, so if a two man scout team is pulled out of it, the ability to split is still there.  German squads on the other hand can only break down into two teams so if you split off a two man scout team the rest of the squad will have to operate as one element.  That is normally less than ideal and impacts the flexibility of your formation.

Of course the fewer men you have in a scout team, the less vulnerable they will be, harder for the enemy to spot, etc..  but when commanding Germans I almost always scout with a full split squad, the LMG team will be providing overwatch and support for the maneuver team.  The following image shows this in action (Team B is moving up in line with Team A, then Team A will bound forward again):

Edited October 25, 2018 by Bil Hardenberger

[Erwin]

Some squads are set up so that one can split into 3 teams others only into 2 teams.  That latter is problematic as a 2-man scout team is very useful, a 7 man team that can't be split is less tactically useful.

It doesn't seem to be a matter of size of squad as in CMBS the 7 man Ukrainian squads can be split into 3.  Whereas the larger 9 man US squad can only be split into 2 teams.  That makes the Ukrainians more tactically useful than the US.

But is that an accurate depiction of RL??  Is it US doctrine to not split a 9 man Stryker squad into more than 2 teams??  

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 5

Well, I was wrong. Not a single shot was fired last turn. No new contacts were discovered. My squad in reserve is approaching the main line.

I will merge the two-man scout team with its squad next turn.

Now, given the sound contact I had, I am sure now that @JoMc67 has some troops inside objective number one. So, basically, I have no choice. I must attack. I have decided to use my reserve squad to try a flanking maneuver.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, ncc1701e said:

I am sure now that @JoMc67 has some troops inside objective number one.

While you have been advancing in a tactical sensible manner fit for real life, your opponent, playing this as a game, has just been running full tilt towards the objective zone. Especially on a symmetrical map like this, he knows he won't get any trouble before he crests the ridge.

[Bil Hardenberger]

6 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

While you have been advancing in a tactical sensible manner fit for real life, your opponent, playing this as a game, has just been running full tilt towards the objective zone. Especially on a symmetrical map like this, he knows he won't get any trouble before he crests the ridge.

That's a good point.  Also, it appears, and I don't know for sure as I haven't seen an overhead map.. that your opponent had a MUCH shorter run to the objectives than you... I would call foul if I were you.. now instead of an ME you are playing an Attack with equal forces.  That could get tricky.

[ncc1701e]

9 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

That's a good point.  Also, it appears, and I don't know for sure as I haven't seen an overhead map.. that your opponent had a MUCH shorter run to the objectives than you... I would call foul if I were you.. now instead of an ME you are playing an Attack with equal forces.  That could get tricky.

Yes you are right. My opponent had a shorter distance to reach objectives. Now, what I am planning is to probe the right of the village with the squad I am sending. I will move the HQ team, the Panzerschreck team plus the squad, again merged, to try to achieve a local fire superiority.

[Hardradi]

On 10/24/2018 at 11:41 PM, ncc1701e said:

Here are the conditions for this scenario:

On a side note, the manual says "Keep in mind that Ground Conditions can change during the course of a battle. E.g. during a Downpour, ground conditions may change from Wet to Muddy during the battle."

[Oliver_88]

Yeh I did not mention that extra piece of information (but should have) as once I saw your conditions I assumed just light rain for this short of a mission would not change the ground condition from dry drastically enough to cause any problems.

But now that I am thinking about it I do not actually know how long takes the states to chane. Has anyone tested or documented anywhere as to the time needed for the ground condition to deteriorate to the next state when subjected to the various rain strengths?

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

But now that I am thinking about it I do not actually know how long takes the states to change.

I believe it doesn't change. The rain affects visibility, but ground conditions stay as you set them.

[Oliver_88]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I believe it doesn't change. The rain affects visibility, but ground conditions stay as you set them.

I cannot quote the manual directly (on phone) but I can quote Hardradi’s post above mine that does so. According to the manual they can change.

15 hours ago, Hardradi said:

On a side note, the manual says "Keep in mind that Ground Conditions can change during the course of a battle. E.g. during a Downpour, ground conditions may change from Wet to Muddy during the battle."

 

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 6

My plan, if I can call that a plan , is developing. The squad is taking position on my right wing to probe the village.

In order to distract the enemy, I am asking my HQ team to pop smoke to obtain a reaction from the other side. I would like him to ask himself the question of what I am doing. I am secretly asking myself the same question.  Assaulting with a ratio of 1:1, I am sure that I am doomed.

Edited October 26, 2018 by ncc1701e

[domfluff]

So, a couple of thoughts at this stage:

- Is the right flank secure? From the overhead shot, it looks like the rightmost unit is not in any form of cover or concealment, so it would only take one LMG on the other side to ruin your day.

- How much do you know about the enemy? The "1:1 ratio" comment implies that tou're working on the assumption that he has a full platoon in the objective. Whilst I think that's a plausible scenario, it's far from the only one - and it's probably worth learning more about the enemy before an assault is planned. "Probing attack" is certainly a sensible idea, but I'd be worried about deciding to concentrate forces in this way, without having an idea where the enemy is.

- Smoke is valuable, but popping it as a distraction isn't silly. One concern is what reaction you're trying to provoke - if there are enemy in the leftmost woods, then speculative firing into the smoke seems likely (but doesn't this run against the ROE here?) - do the likely incoming fires actually hurt you more than help you? It certainly reveals that there's more than just a single squad there (assuming he has similar sound contacts to you).

- I'm a little concerned about lines of fire here. If you're moving the central squad, can the leftmost squad cover the right squad's advance to the target? The middle squad looks (from here) better placed to do that, to me.



 

[MOS:96B2P]

11 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I believe it doesn't change. The rain affects visibility, but ground conditions stay as you set them.

 

3 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

I cannot quote the manual directly (on phone) but I can quote Hardradi’s post above mine that does so. According to the manual they can change.  

Steve from BFC said the below in italics.  The forum thread is linked at the bottom. 

The engine is not capable of dynamic weather. If it's raining at the beginning of the scenario it will be raining until the scenario ends. Ground conditions, can change from the simulation side of things in limited ways. Such as ground getting soggier as time goes on.

I don't know how long the ground conditions take to change but apparently they can.  However, I don't think the "listed" ground condition in the Conditions Menu ever changes what's listed. 

Example: At the beginning of the scenario ground condition is dry but weather is rain.  One hour into the scenario the ground condition changes as far as bogging etc.  However I think the Conditions Menu will still read, dry.  I don't remember ever seeing the menu change during a game even though the actual ground conditions, in game, can.  This would probably make testing how long it takes ground conditions to change (from dry to wet during rain etc.) difficult.       

But @Bulletpoint could probably spend his weekend testing this and let us all know on Monday ...............    

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

But @Bulletpoint could probably spend his weekend testing this and let us all know on Monday ............... 

I know it's hard to believe, but I also do other things in life than play this game and test out stuff 

Sorry for derailing this thread, please carry on with the AAR.

Edited October 27, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[ncc1701e]

14 hours ago, domfluff said:

- Is the right flank secure? From the overhead shot, it looks like the rightmost unit is not in any form of cover or concealment, so it would only take one LMG on the other side to ruin your day.

Yes, due to our house rules, I would like to provoke a little bit. If he fires at me, the other team of this squad is there to hit back.

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- How much do you know about the enemy? The "1:1 ratio" comment implies that tou're working on the assumption that he has a full platoon in the objective. Whilst I think that's a plausible scenario, it's far from the only one - and it's probably worth learning more about the enemy before an assault is planned. "Probing attack" is certainly a sensible idea, but I'd be worried about deciding to concentrate forces in this way, without having an idea where the enemy is.

This is my main problem. Despite this sound contact, I know almost nothing about him. The "1:1 ratio" is indeed an assumption. But, this is also the worst case possible. I prefer to expect the worst than to count on luck. I am concentrating also to have a local fire superiority. From what I have read, I will need fire superiority anyway if I need to fallback in the best possible conditions.

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- Smoke is valuable, but popping it as a distraction isn't silly. One concern is what reaction you're trying to provoke - if there are enemy in the leftmost woods, then speculative firing into the smoke seems likely (but doesn't this run against the ROE here?) - do the likely incoming fires actually hurt you more than help you? It certainly reveals that there's more than just a single squad there (assuming he has similar sound contacts to you).

You are right with our ROE. But, I would like him to move troops thinking an attack will come from this location. Movements that I hope to see.

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- I'm a little concerned about lines of fire here. If you're moving the central squad, can the leftmost squad cover the right squad's advance to the target? The middle squad looks (from here) better placed to do that, to me.

The squad on the left is moving next turn. 

[ncc1701e]

50 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Sorry for derailing this thread, please carry on with the AAR.

No worries, all of what is said here is interesting.

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 7

The HQ team launches one smoke grenade for diversion as planned.

My scout team is very closed from the first houses now. There is still no sign of the enemy. Their firing arcs should be set for short ranges.

Regarding the right flank, I know this is an unexplored zone but I have not enough troops to cover this. Also, if I was not on the edge of the map, on the left side, the exact same problem is existing. What is sure is that continuing on the left edge of the map, I am entering in a potential kill zone.

A second squad is arriving in my setup zone for the attack. Hope the enemy does not have some mortars...

With the smoke screen now active, the leftmost squad plus the HQ team is shifting position and are going on the right. I hope that my smoke screen will attract some enemy troops and that I could learn more about the enemy.

Oh yes, and I forgot to mention that in the above green circle, my LMG team is watching and covering the woods on the left of the village.

Edited October 27, 2018 by ncc1701e

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, ncc1701e said:

My scout team is very closed from the first houses now. There is still no sign of the enemy. Their firing arcs should be set for short ranges.

If so, your opponent is making a mistake. Because that will let you get very close to the houses and set up overwatch. Then once the firing starts, his cover in the houses won't help him much - protection heavily depends on the distance. Especially with your MG42s that can punch straight through the walls at these ranges and fire extremely rapidly when close.

Of course, you will also be exposed in the open, but you're taking away much of the advantage he has of being in cover.

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

once the firing starts, his cover in the houses won't help him much - protection heavily depends on the distance

unless...  you oppo could be very smart and not set up IN the building, but BEHIND it.  You can pour as much suppressive fire at the front of the building as you want.  It will not affect enemy units behind the building.  When your troops enter the building they would be cut down easily.

Highly recommend that you get LOS all around buildings to ensure your oppo is not using this very effective ambush tactic.  

 

[ncc1701e]

17 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Highly recommend that you get LOS all around buildings to ensure your oppo is not using this very effective ambush tactic. 

He is . Just finishing my replay... I am joking with @JoMc67 privately that, next time, he should give me a tank as a backup.  But, I will not surrender so easily (I have seen the "Lone Survivor" movie from Peter Berg yesterday night).

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 8

The HQ team is on the move, protected by the smoke.

I have used the QUICK command for my squad to reach the position of the Scout team. And, obviously, it was a mistake since gunfire can be heard (first below screenshot) and seen (second below screenshot)

One guy is touched by a bullet. And, of course, this is the MG42 guy. Come on... But, quick question, I have used QUICK not FAST. Are not the guys supposed to hit the ground when being shot at with QUICK command? ASSAULT is using FAST command, according to manual, so I was not thinking it was a good choice. HUNT was the only option, right? But, HUNT is so slow... I am still too impatient...

At the end of the turn, as @Erwin pointed out, I have a sound contact of something in the village behind the first house.

My orders for next turn are as follow:

1. The Scout team is targeting briefly the soldiers in the woods on the left.
2. Then, the Scout team is ordered to launch a smoke grenade for covering my guys.
3. The LMG team is doing an area fire on the sound contact he has of the soldiers in the woods on the left.
4. The two teams are doing an area fire on the sound contact in the village, ready to fallback if needed.

We are always learning from our mistakes, right? 

[Bil Hardenberger]

12 minutes ago, ncc1701e said:

MINUTE 8

...

... But, quick question, I have used QUICK not FAST. Are not the guys supposed to hit the ground when being shot at with QUICK command? ASSAULT is using FAST command, according to manual, so I was not thinking it was a good choice. HUNT was the only option, right? But, HUNT is so slow... I am still too impatient..

...

Nope.. they will try their damndest to reach the waypoint with those two movement types.  Only Hunt will have them hit the ground and stop moving when under fire.

When the enemy contact is possible or probable I try to only use Fast or Quick in very short rushes (one or two action spots) and only under certain conditions, crossing a linear danger area, to quickly move through covered ground, etc.  You can intersperse those fast movement types with Hunt and still move forward at a pretty quick clip... I usually will pause after each rush for 5-10 seconds, or longer to allow the bounding team to reach its destination.

Yeah.. don't be in a hurry.. this is a small map and you have plenty of time.  

Bil

[Bulletpoint]

1 minute ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

19 minutes ago, ncc1701e said:

... But, quick question, I have used QUICK not FAST. Are not the guys supposed to hit the ground when being shot at with QUICK command? ASSAULT is using FAST command, according to manual, so I was not thinking it was a good choice. HUNT was the only option, right? But, HUNT is so slow... I am still too impatient..

...

Nope.. they will try their damndest to reach the waypoint with those two movement types.  Only Hunt will have them hit the ground and stop moving when under fire.

Always thought the FAST command made them prioritise getting to their destination even more than using QUICK?

[Bulletpoint]

25 minutes ago, ncc1701e said:

We are always learning from our mistakes, right?

I've played this game for years now, and I still make mistakes. They're just different mistakes than I made when I started out

[Erwin]

39 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Always thought the FAST command made them prioritise getting to their destination even more than using QUICK?

Correct.  Units on QUICK may stop and fire their weapons if the have a suitable target.  AT teams will do this is they see armor at effective AT range.  (It is fun to watch an AT team on QUICK, suddenly spot a tank, stop and kill it, then carry on to their waypoint.)  

Moving FAST the unit is going flat out and not stop cos they see something to shoot at.  However, in either mode the unit can be forced to stop and run away (or hit the ground and try and evade).