US "Cannon Company" placed in wrong tab

[Bulletpoint]

When purchasing US forces for a quick battle, there's an artillery module called "Cannon Company" that's placed in the "Infantry" category. I believe it should be under "Artillery" like all the other support modules?

If this is a mistake, it could be more than just a cosmetic problem. The game's auto-buy function could think it's buying infantry, but ends up buying artillery support.

Edited October 19, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[Wicky]

A peculiar thing the Cannon Company

http://ww2f.com/threads/regimental-cannon-company.18759/

Quote

These weapons were obviously closer to the sharp end of the sword than divisional or corp artillery and it wasn't uncommon for these men to find themselves fighting as infantry.

Quote

I've read that the men that manned the guns in these regimental cannon companies were classified as infantrymen and not artillerymen. And that's why their units were platoons and companies, sections and batteries as in the field artillery. I was never sure why such units ever existed, but it seems that their main reason was to provide direct/indirect fire to the regiments, and secondarily to support divarty in larger fire missions.

I noticed them in the editor and was puzzled in passing - but reading up on them prompted by your observation seems to reveal they were a bit of a mixed bag for categorisation.

Edited October 20, 2018 by Wicky

[Michael Emrys]

Has anybody ever checked to see if they respond to calls for fire any quicker than div or corps arty?

Michael

[Wicky]

Nice indepth mongraph that covers The Cannon Company 1942–45

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a210927.pdf

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, Wicky said:

I noticed them in the editor and was puzzled in passing - but reading up on them prompted by your observation seems to reveal they were a bit of a mixed bag for categorisation.

Even if they were sometimes fighting as infantrymen in the real war, in the game, they are still just an artillery support module. They don't appear on the map as troops, as far as I know. I must say I still don't really understand why they are not placed in the artillery tab...

[Wicky]

Because, from my reading, the cannon company was introduced into the infantry regiment Table of Organization (T/O) in March 1942. To provide a more bottom up, close up & personal infantry support role rather than a div top down approach.

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, Wicky said:

Because, from my reading, the cannon company was introduced into the infantry regiment Table of Organization (T/O) in March 1942. To provide a more bottom up, close up & personal infantry support role rather than a div top down approach.

I think we are speaking past each other. You're talking about how things were in the war. I'm talking about the game interface.

The artillery category already contains artillery from to various levels, from battleship bombardment down to organic 60mm off board mortars. The cannon company belongs there too, I think.

If it had shorter call times in the real war, then that can be reflected in the asset matchup level.

[Wicky]

I'm away from main puter so I don't have access to game to check - but it should feature in both Inf and Arty as they also provided top down div support as well.

[domfluff]

It contains an on-map HQ unit, with a jeep, and three off-map platoons of two 105mm M3's.

The fact there is an on-map component at all is probably a good reason to put this in the Infantry section - everything in the Artillery section is off-map only.

It's definitely confusing though.

Edited October 21, 2018 by domfluff

[Bulletpoint]

42 minutes ago, domfluff said:

It contains an on-map HQ unit, with a jeep, and three off-map platoons of two 105mm M3's.

The fact there is an on-map component at all is probably a good reason to put this in the Infantry section - everything in the Artillery section is off-map only.

It's definitely confusing though.

Yep, you're right. I just checked and it does come with an HQ unit. No jeep though.

@Michael Emrys Yes, the Cannon Company is much faster to call in (9 mins) than the regular 105s (13 mins). However, the call times are the same for every HQ unit; the Cannon Company guy doesn't get through any faster. So he's pretty superfluous.

Here's a balancing problem: There is no reason to EVER buy the regular Medium howitzers. 

In both cases, you get 105s, and they cost the same amount of points per shell. However, the Cannon Company divides into three separate units, so can target three different positions. And it gets called in much faster. Ok, you then have to spend 17 points on the HQ unit, but that's peanuts, and that unit can be used for a scout or observation post.

I guess for scenario purposes, it's still nice to have both options though.

[domfluff]

That's from the Scenario editor - I'm not sure whether some Quick Battle settings remove the Jeep.

[domfluff]

Yeah, looks like the Quick Battle version doesn't get a Jeep. Obviously you can add one though.

 

[General Liederkranz]

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Yes, the Cannon Company is much faster to call in (9 mins) than the regular 105s (13 mins). However, the call times are the same for every HQ unit; the Cannon Company guy doesn't get through any faster. So he's pretty superfluous.

Here's a balancing problem: There is no reason to EVER buy the regular Medium howitzers. 

Thanks for the details on this, it's interesting. From a realism perspective, this seems odd, because I know I've read the infantry regiments normally found Cannon Companies useful only when they could be tied into the divisional artillery's fire control net. So it's odd that the Cannon Coy howitzers are more flexible and quicker than the divisional artillery, especially when they're on their own. 

[Wicky]

38 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

Thanks for the details on this, it's interesting. From a realism perspective, this seems odd, because I know I've read the infantry regiments normally found Cannon Companies useful only when they could be tied into the divisional artillery's fire control net. So it's odd that the Cannon Coy howitzers are more flexible and quicker than the divisional artillery, especially when they're on their own. 

Have a read of the monograph I linked to earlier  - they were almost cancelled early on by McNair but call from those on the pointy end still wanted them which helped quickly overturn the decision - and while difficult to haul around and keep up with advances (they ideally wanted self-propelled guns) they proved useful in a few situations i.e. Sicily with distrupting enemy armour attacks and direct fire at blocking bunkers, fixed fortifications.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Wicky

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

 From a realism perspective, this seems odd, because I know I've read the infantry regiments normally found Cannon Companies useful only when they could be tied into the divisional artillery's fire control net. So it's odd that the Cannon Coy howitzers are more flexible and quicker than the divisional artillery, especially when they're on their own. 

Well, consider that the canon companies are not having to distribute their support among the whole division, but just to the regiment that they are supporting.

Michael