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BMP 1p (4c) Main Gun

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Hi

How do i fire only the main gun without also useing the ATGM, when i use normal target the gunner pops up and reload the ATGM and get killed. when target  briefly only the MG fire.

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You do not have that kind of control. Your choices are to let the Tac AI control the vehicle commander and he will choose what weapons system to use on what target. You can use the target command which should use the main gun, ATGM and MGs on the target of your choice or the target light command that will use the MGs only on the target of your choice. The target briefly command is the same as the target command except it is time limited. That time limit might make it feel like it is different because it takes longer to aim and fire different systems. If you give the target briefly command a full minute or more on average it should work out the same.

Also note that the vehicle commander may override your orders if they feel the need. A classic example is if you order the vehicle to target a building and an enemy AFV comes into view the TC may take action and target said AFV. The soft factors you chose will effect that choice. More experienced crews will make better choices quicker and more fanatic crews will be more likely to stick to your orders and ignore other threats.

My recommendation would be to mostly favour letting the Tac AI pick the targets and if you are ordering the targeting of something specific use target briefly such that they only have a target order for part of the turn. That leaves the Tac AI free to engage other targets as needed. Obviously that's not a hard and fast rule but its a good start.

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As Ian said letting the tacAI do its thing is for the best. It makes a already pretty in depth game a whole lot les complicated. And any bit helps. 

Unless you have some crazy OCD or something. 

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Target Heavy is the sign off for your unit to hit a given location with everything it's got. Target Light is what you want for suppressive fire. The BMP's main gun sits somewhat inbetween both commands unfortunately, but I prefer the crews use it on identified targets anyway. I do not think it's very good against structures and they don't carry enough ammo to really just unload with it. 

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In all of my numerous h2h and single player games in Black Sea I cant recall seeing a BMP of any flavor fire an ATGM. I don’t recall one being fired in the original Shock Force either. I think some have mentioned seeing them used. 

Ive also noticed that Bradley’s get the first shots off at BMPs the vast majority of the time.

I was told by another player that you need at least 3 or more men inside a BMP for it to spot property. I didn’t really ask what was meant by that. 

They are cool looking and when they do fire are useful against infantry and will destroy MBTs like Abrams if they get flanking shots.

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The BMP's fire control is entirely manual and its optics are unenhanced. It does not surprise me that the Bradley, a much newer and more expensive design, comes out on top more often. 

The BMP is supposed to have a 3 man crew but I believe when the squad disembarks one of those men is the vehicle's commander. I am not sure if this is intentional, it would not surprise me since the vehicle is supposed to cooperate closely with its' dismounts. The BMP is a first generation IFV meant to provide protection and fire support for the infantry. It can fight armor but really is not intended to duel anything much heavier than an M113. It caused a major stir in the west when it came out but much of the thinking behind it is very 1945ish, aside from the NBC protection which was a major selling point of the vehicle not covered in the game's scope. I personally like it quite a bit, and actually prefer the BMP-1 to the later models myself. The BMP-2's autocannon is undoubtedly better against armor but I prefer the Grom against soft targets and light vehicles that are so common amongst BLUFOR. 

Edited by SimpleSimon

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ATGMs definitely fire from BMP's in both CMSF and CMBS.

e.g.:

YNGOXN5.jpg

There are some reasons why this is less than obvious.

- They'll usually need some distance to prioritise ATGM fire - they're slower to fire and reload, so often getting Autocannon fire on a target *now* is often easier, and more effective.

- They're laser guided. In CMBS that means that the BMP will start to acquire, and the target will often disappear in a puff of smoke, breaking contact. This slows things down further.

- They're fired out of the main cannon. It's not always obvious that what's been fired is an ATGM.

- They're not very good. Failed ATGM's are harder to spot in the chaos than successful ones, and the BMP's ATGMs are easy to counter, passively or otherwise.

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Incidentally, that's actually one area where the BMP-2 might actually be the better choice - AT-5's are wire guided, not laser guided, so laser warnings won't fire.

It doesn't really help that the actual missile that hits (or might hit) is a lot less powerful though.

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Actually, doing some tests has really made me appreciate how well the TacAI works for the BMP-2. The At-5 needs reloading manually (i.e., the gunner unbuttoning), so the BMP will fire off an AT-5, then pop smoke and/or reverse to break LOS, and give it's gunner the cover to reload. Shoot and scoot, in quite a convincing fashion.

If it isn't safe, then it won't reload the AT-5, so the rate of fire in general will drop.

Essentially, ATGM's on a BMP are a nice-to-have, and they increase the size of the explosion when they remember that they are BMPs. Actually using them as an ATGM platform is not particularly easy, and it's not really what they're for. If you had to, I'd want them hull down, at least a couple of km away from whatever I'm pointing them at.

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4 minutes ago, domfluff said:

If it isn't safe, then it won't reload the AT-5, so the rate of fire in general will drop.

Wish the Stryker crews exhibited the same care.  I see them being killed regularly when they pop up to reload the 50 cal.

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I think it might be a crew experience sort of thing. I don't mind either way though. I don't think it's my job to micromanage every function and detail of my pixeltruppen. Sometimes they're just going to be stupid. People can make mistakes and are generally more apt to do so in a pitched fight than a video game implies. 

The BMP's ATGM don't even strike me as for use "in a pinch". They're more like a last ditch. 

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Even the newer BMPs in Black Sea seem to suffer the same as the old ones on SF. I've run numerous QBs as well as h2h. The newer ones don't have a cannon fired ATGM. But in general I agree that the ATGM is more of a secondary weapon. Even on Bradley's they don't seem to be used often. I have another simulation Steel Beasts Pro 4.0 where you can fire the ATGMs on both and as I recall there is a set procedure you must follow to employ the ATGM and the cannons on both are much easier and faster to use.

Regarding the 3 men to spot properly on BMPs that is interesting. It kinda begs the question of if you have a spare man running around like a bailed out crewman from another vehicle or a sniper and mount them on a BMP that has disgorged its squad will it spot better?

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3 hours ago, db_zero said:

if you have a spare man running around like a bailed out crewman from another vehicle or a sniper and mount them on a BMP that has disgorged its squad will it spot better?

Previous discussion resulted in a "yes".  Very helpful to always try and have at least a 3rd crewman in any fighting vehicles (incl Strykers).

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2 hours ago, db_zero said:

Regarding the 3 men to spot properly on BMPs that is interesting. It kinda begs the question of if you have a spare man running around like a bailed out crewman from another vehicle or a sniper and mount them on a BMP that has disgorged its squad will it spot better?

Yes.  This what some players do in CMBS.  Also they will sometimes purchase an Igla unit (which is just one troop) and have him take the commanders seat in the BMP and/or BTR after the dismounts leave.  However some players discovered that having a squad leader in the commanders seat gave even better results than having a random troop.  With the squad leader inside, the BMP was faster at sequentially engaging and destroying targets.  So some will split the dismounted squad and send the squad leader half back into the vehicle.  There are a few threads discussing this tactic.   

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35 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Yes.  This what some players do in CMBS.  Also they will sometimes purchase an Igla unit (which is just one troop) and have him take the commanders seat in the BMP and/or BTR after the dismounts leave.  However some players discovered that having a squad leader in the commanders seat gave even better results than having a random troop.  With the squad leader inside, the BMP was faster at sequentially engaging and destroying targets.  So some will split the dismounted squad and send the squad leader half back into the vehicle.  There are a few threads discussing this tactic.   

Interesting. Looking at Wikapedia its says BMP have a crew of 3 men and 7 or 8 passengers, so I'm wondering if the 2 men when the squad exits is intentional, bug or oversight. If Wikepedia is correct then shouldn't it get fixed as it seems like it does affect game play.

Edited by db_zero

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Apparently it's Soviet/Russian doctrine that the squad leader is an integral part of the BMP crew (or at least, that the platoon XO stays in the commander's seat in one BMP and directs the other vehicles after the platoon dismounts). I learned a lot about BMP spotting and extra crew members from this post and those following (including a helpful test): 

 

 

Also useful information:

 

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21 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

Apparently it's Soviet/Russian doctrine that the squad leader is an integral part of the BMP crew (or at least, that the platoon XO stays in the commander's seat in one BMP and directs the other vehicles after the platoon dismounts). I learned a lot about BMP spotting and extra crew members from this post and those following (including a helpful test): 

 

 

Also useful information:

 

Thanks for the info. I guess the solution is to add an extra man or contact the Russian MOD and get them to change their doctrine. Someone once posted a picture of Putin playing Black Sea. You’d think after a few games and seeing the performance of his BMPs he’d get on the phone and have the MOD to rewrite doctrine...

I’m not crazy about using extra pixel troops to gain better spotting. It does sound crazy and a bit gamey but it is what it is...

Well now I’ll know what to do with my bailed out crewmen or shot up squads 

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6 hours ago, db_zero said:

Interesting. Looking at Wikapedia its says BMP have a crew of 3 men and 7 or 8 passengers, so I'm wondering if the 2 men when the squad exits is intentional, bug or oversight. If Wikepedia is correct then shouldn't it get fixed as it seems like it does affect game play.

You can read also this thread with detailed explaination of BMP optic and crerw working in real situation: 

In short - dismounted squad leader communicates with BMP crew by radio or by voice for targeting. He must observe a situation with own eyes and control own squad on the battlefield, BMP is just support vehicle and "armored taxi". There is no sense to sit inside.

Edited by Haiduk

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Thanks for the links and info. After years of playing CM and over 100 h2h games there is always something new to learn about.

Combat Mission and Total War with mods are the 2 games I would pick if I had to choose just 2. 

Wouldnt want to be forced to chose just 1.

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On 10/19/2018 at 6:00 PM, db_zero said:

Even the newer BMPs in Black Sea seem to suffer the same as the old ones on SF. I've run numerous QBs as well as h2h. The newer ones don't have a cannon fired ATGM. But in general I agree that the ATGM is more of a secondary weapon. Even on Bradley's they don't seem to be used often. I have another simulation Steel Beasts Pro 4.0 where you can fire the ATGMs on both and as I recall there is a set procedure you must follow to employ the ATGM and the cannons on both are much easier and faster to use.

I played through the Alamo mission in the demo and noticed that the Marders do not fire the ATGM, even at tanks (T-62's)?  They were able to knock out/immobilize the tanks with their MK20 after several rounds, but I'm guessing they need to be unbuttoned to use the ATGM?  A cursory search shows a limitation of the MILAN 3 is exposure of the operator, which does seem surprising for a modern IFV.  Or maybe they figure it's not necessary against a T-62?  Is the TACAI able to reason to that extent?  In my experience, Bradley's almost always fire as expected in Black Sea, but maybe just because the operator isn't exposed?

Edited by aleader

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Not sure if this is relevant as I haven't looked at this scenario yet.  However, in CMSF1 play, it was common for vehicles to use their guns rather than missiles when encountering enemy armor at relatively short ranges.  I recall that AT vehicles were only effective with missiles when shooting missiles at well over 1Km ranges.  

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35 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Not sure if this is relevant as I haven't looked at this scenario yet.  However, in CMSF1 play, it was common for vehicles to use their guns rather than missiles when encountering enemy armor at relatively short ranges.  I recall that AT vehicles were only effective with missiles when shooting missiles at well over 1Km ranges.  

That's very likely it as the way I played it the first time, they didn't get to the battle until the armour that was left was pretty much right in the fortress and ranges were well under 400m.  Am I correct in assuming that they need to unbutton to use it though?

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2 hours ago, aleader said:

Am I correct in assuming that they need to unbutton to use it though?

Hope someone else can respond to that.  Not so familiar with German stuff.

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3 hours ago, aleader said:

That's very likely it as the way I played it the first time, they didn't get to the battle until the armour that was left was pretty much right in the fortress and ranges were well under 400m.  Am I correct in assuming that they need to unbutton to use it though?

This is probably the issue.  MILAN has quite the minimum range - seems like 200 meters, according to the epitome of information, Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MILAN

If you're closer than that it probably can't line up to engage.  I know I ran into that same issue in that scenario where I brought my MILAN teams onto the fortress walls and couldn't figure out why they weren't shooting!

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20 hours ago, aleader said:

I played through the Alamo mission in the demo and noticed that the Marders do not fire the ATGM, even at tanks (T-62's)?  They were able to knock out/immobilize the tanks with their MK20 after several rounds, but I'm guessing they need to be unbuttoned to use the ATGM?  A cursory search shows a limitation of the MILAN 3 is exposure of the operator, which does seem surprising for a modern IFV.  Or maybe they figure it's not necessary against a T-62?  Is the TACAI able to reason to that extent?  In my experience, Bradley's almost always fire as expected in Black Sea, but maybe just because the operator isn't exposed?

The MILAN came out after development of the Marder was finished and initial production began. Marder is another relatively old IFV chassis that, like the BMP, was developed before the rise of modern (that is, useful) ATGMs. Then in the 1970s everyone went crazy with ATGMs and started demanding they be put on everything that could carry them because IFVs are difficult to sell to the bean counters with the underline that "it's not a tank", but often cost more than many contemporary tanks...

Edited by SimpleSimon

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