Demo Feedback

[CMC]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 10:55 AM, Michael Emrys said:

Each of the 155mm platoons would be roughly equivalent to a pair of 6" naval canons. I would expect the naval guns to have more ammo though.

Perhaps the 155s are just place holders for the demo and when the full game is released they will be replaced with true naval artillery.

Michael

I do believe the guns are abstract and the game's 155's come closest to US Naval assets.   However, the Navy does not use 6" ordnance on current warships.  They use 5"/54 Mk45 (127mm).  Destroyers have one 5" gun and cruisers have two.  So, I'm assuming this scenario is simulating a cruiser and destroyer supporting the landing.  As a side note the newer Zumwalt class destroyers will have the 6"(155mm) advanced gun system (AGS).

Edited November 11, 2018 by CMC

[CMC]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 12:49 PM, rocketman said:

But naval artillery takes longer to call in, is less accurate and has a slower rate of fire. I hope they substitute for true naval fire in the final release.

I'm not sure what you are basing this comment on.  The US Navy uses the 5"/54 (127mm) Mk45 on current warships.  The loading system is automatic so the gun can maintain a fire rate of 16 to 20 rounds per minute (not taking into account cooling times), compared to the Marine Corps M777/155mm howitzer, that fires at a rate of 2 to 5 rounds per minute.  As far as accuracy is concerned, we conducted numerous gun fire support missions with the US Marine Corps and UK Royal Marines with exceptional accuracy.  We were hitting main battle tank sized objects from 10+ miles out.  As far as time to call in fire, you may be correct.  I don't have data to support or debunk that opinion.

[Kaunitz]

I assume it has already been mentioned somewhere: I'd like to point out that IFV/tank crews automatically opening up to reload weapon systems (.50 cal? ATGMs) is quite problematical. 

[Andy_101]

6 hours ago, Pandur said:

i played and won all demo scenarios and i like what i see. i honestly think this will be the best CM game yet. there is so much included, you can create all type of scenarios with the kits and vehicles in the game. i am fired up!

 

some small problems i see are;

- soldiers seem to be more "creative" when selecting which door to use and they not always use the same door. in "the passage at wilcox" i had a squad behind a house and ordered a quick move into the house. half the squad use the close back entrance, the other half run around to the side and us another door? it seems in engine v4 they are more inclined to split up a use different doors, i did  not see that in the old games so much.

 

- building wall segments without windows, where the troops can fire through the solid wall. seen in the wilcox and breaking the bank scenario. it looks perfectly solid, no visual damage to the wall, but the enemy can see and shoot at you, and you can fire back through the solid wall.

 

- holes made with the "blast" command, sometimes are ignored by squads. the squad blasting the hole usually always uses the blasted hole, but if i try to send other squads after them, one may decide to run around the long way and often gets shot.

I also noticed that the soldiers choose different doors to enter buildings.  I thought the issue with squads running into the line of fire to get into a building was an issue that was going to be resolved in engine 4?

[rocketman]

2 hours ago, CMC said:

I'm not sure what you are basing this comment on.  The US Navy uses the 5"/54 (127mm) Mk45 on current warships.  The loading system is automatic so the gun can maintain a fire rate of 16 to 20 rounds per minute (not taking into account cooling times), compared to the Marine Corps M777/155mm howitzer, that fires at a rate of 2 to 5 rounds per minute.  As far as accuracy is concerned, we conducted numerous gun fire support missions with the US Marine Corps and UK Royal Marines with exceptional accuracy.  We were hitting main battle tank sized objects from 10+ miles out.  As far as time to call in fire, you may be correct.  I don't have data to support or debunk that opinion.

I guess I based that on the WWII titles, so I'm wrong to assume that.

[AlexUK]

4 hours ago, Kaunitz said:

I assume it has already been mentioned somewhere: I'd like to point out that IFV/tank crews automatically opening up to reload weapon systems (.50 cal? ATGMs) is quite problematical. 

Yes, just trying the syrians on a play through of Alamo. Reloading ATGM in BMP means crew member exposes themselves (Target on building). Loader then gets killed by sniper. If crew member has to expose themselves to fire ATGM, I would have thought they would use main gun instead?

 

Also, can the Bradleys reload TOWs without a crew member opening a hatch?

[Erwin]

This is a similar issue for Strykers.  And one can't easily tell when a vehicular MG will run out of ammo so that one could order the vehicle back under cover to reload.  Maybe it would be useful for the gunner to NOT reload without a specific order from the player.  That would enable the vehicle to be moved to safety if desired.

[SlowMotion]

If you create a Quick Battle and select attacker to be Random Blue, then in Combat force selection list Mech Infantry is listed twice.

[Wicky]

On 11/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Andy_101 said:

I also noticed that the soldiers choose different doors to enter buildings.  I thought the issue with squads running into the line of fire to get into a building was an issue that was going to be resolved in engine 4?

Steve recently commented on that - Pixeltroopen when confronted by a queue, will like shoppers confronted by a busy checkout, sometimes decide to make a dash to a near alternative.

A bit like vehicle routing - care and attention has to be made to planning, timing & path making to avoid too many getting funnelled in at once in a rush with resulting spillage.

[AlexUK]

On 11/12/2018 at 2:51 PM, Erwin said:

This is a similar issue for Strykers.  And one can't easily tell when a vehicular MG will run out of ammo so that one could order the vehicle back under cover to reload.  Maybe it would be useful for the gunner to NOT reload without a specific order from the player.  That would enable the vehicle to be moved to safety if desired.

I guess you would need some kind of warning to reload? Otherwise easy to miss? What is interesting in the demo is that the German ifv's pop smoke and retreat after firing TOW. Perhaps an alternative is to apply that to the other vehicles (if they have two missiles loaded, only perform the action after both tubes are empty?)

[Andy_101]

5 hours ago, Wicky said:

Steve recently commented on that - Pixeltroopen when confronted by a queue, will like shoppers confronted by a busy checkout, sometimes decide to make a dash to a near alternative.

A bit like vehicle routing - care and attention has to be made to planning, timing & path making to avoid too many getting funnelled in at once in a rush with resulting spillage.

Okay, however it was a group of 7 men who split to enter the building, 2-3 of whom put themselves into the open in order to enter the building. Seems really counter-intuitive and not very realistic.

[Milites]

 

Is it just me or is combat even more lethal in version 4? I played the BS demo and found the infantry combat was a step up from CMSF 1, but now it's a whole new ball game! I got my ass handed to me on several occasions, during the demo and spend a lot more time crawling around and respecting OPFOR MG's and snipers. Having said that, BLUFOR soldiers are even more lethal, dropping targets regularly at 200m +, though the Stryker mounted MK 19 seems to have had it's accuracy nerfed a bit.

I found that the action spots and the new corner peaking algorithm cause some problems with deployment. I placed a fire team in the cover of a small building, but because the action spot was slightly offset, one determined pixel-trooper broke cover and defiantly positioned himself against the wall at right angles to the squad. He survived, but as I'd thrown smoke to cover the initial rush, the element of surprise was gone.

Just a few more further observations about the demo.

1. I dropped a harassing barrage, in the training scenario, and was rewarded with some of the airbursts leaving small flame markers some 20 ft above the buildings!

2. Would it be possible to have two animations for LAD's? One showing the compacted tube when being carried and one the extended version when being fired, the British troops look as though they are carrying broomsticks around! 

Finally, what gives with the British ammo load outs for the Rarden? Serving soldiers, I've talked to, said they'd bomb up with the majority ammo type for what was appropriate for the operation. So in Basra, Chally 2's and Warriors had mainly anti personnel and anti-material with some sabot, just in case.

Seriously looking forward to SF2, well done BF.

 

 

 

[rocketman]

It might be supposed to be this way, but Bradleys use their main cannon when targeting light. I thought it would use the co-axial MG. A couple of "preserve" buildings got roughed up a bit too much 

[Homo_Ferricus]

On 11/14/2018 at 7:41 PM, Wicky said:

Steve recently commented on that - Pixeltroopen when confronted by a queue, will like shoppers confronted by a busy checkout, sometimes decide to make a dash to a near alternative.

A bit like vehicle routing - care and attention has to be made to planning, timing & path making to avoid too many getting funnelled in at once in a rush with resulting spillage.

It would seem reasonable to differentiate building entry behaviours between QUICK and FAST—if a player is using QUICK into a building, the entire squad will use the nearest point of entry only, queue and all. If FAST is used, squads will hurry inside the space asap without being delayed by the other fireteam(s) queued up at the nearest entry point.

This way there is an actual difference in how the commands are used in this context; stack up and breach the building vs. get the hell out of the street right now.

[Erwin]

On 11/14/2018 at 3:30 PM, Milites said:

Finally, what gives with the British ammo load outs for the Rarden? Serving soldiers, I've talked to, said they'd bomb up with the majority ammo type for what was appropriate for the operation. So in Basra, Chally 2's and Warriors had mainly anti personnel and anti-material with some sabot, just in case.

Adjusting load-out to what makes sens has been brought up may time b4.  Not sure why the editor doesn't allow that like one could in CM1.

 

16 hours ago, rocketman said:

It might be supposed to be this way, but Bradleys use their main cannon when targeting light. I thought it would use the co-axial MG. A couple of "preserve" buildings got roughed up a bit too much 

Yup.  Been mentioned a lot.  In addition one often wants TARGET LIGHT when one's inf is attacking, and if the 25mm fires it can cause a lot of friendly casualties.

[rocketman]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

 

Yup.  Been mentioned a lot.  In addition one often wants TARGET LIGHT when one's inf is attacking, and if the 25mm fires it can cause a lot of friendly casualties.

OK, can't remember how it works in BS. Is it the same?

[MikeyD]

Quote

Syrian tanks seem to be too good spotters

I'm sorry, but I just got a big chuckle reading that. My own experience with Syrian tanks is they're usually half-blind!

Its been my experience (across all the titles) that relying on 'Maybe they won't see me' as a tactic rarely works. Because they ALWAYS see you. At the MOST inconvenient moment. Every time. Its somewhat related to the "buttered-toast phenomenon" that says if you drop your toast it will land butter side down. If there's a chance of a good outcome and a bad outcome expect the bad outcome.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, rocketman said:

OK, can't remember how it works in BS. Is it the same?

Believe it or not I have only played RED or with Strykers (50 cal is their only weapon) in CMBS.  Have never played with Bradleys.  Hope someone tests it.  (I would expect this problem to be the same if all are v4 engine.)

[A Canadian Cat]

16 hours ago, MikeyD said:

I'm sorry, but I just got a big chuckle reading that. My own experience with Syrian tanks is they're usually half-blind!

LOL me too. We should do a study and compare how often people complain that tank x is blind and never sees anything to how often people say tank x spots to well, how can it be that good?

 

16 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Every time. Its somewhat related to the "buttered-toast phenomenon" that says if you drop your toast it will land butter side down. 

Well it turns out that there is a reason that happens - it's not random. Falling from table height toast has enough time to rotate a half rotation - butter side down: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttered_toast_phenomenon

Having said that it is good advice to not assume "they wouldn't see me"...

[absolutmauser]

On 11/8/2018 at 3:12 AM, Erwin said:

Firing a main gun like the 25mm when one only wants MG fire to cover one's attacking inf can be fatal to the inf.  So, yes, this is an issue one hopes will be addressed.

 

This might be a dumb question, but IRL how do Bradleys and the dismounts coordinate this? Obviously the 25mm with HE and API has a certain AOE greater than 7.62mm coax, but I'm not sure I'd want the Bradley blasting away with the coax if I was dismounted in proximity to the target area either! I'm sure there must be doctrine on this, I just don't know what it is!

[absolutmauser]

On 11/8/2018 at 3:12 AM, Erwin said:

Firing a main gun like the 25mm when one only wants MG fire to cover one's attacking inf can be fatal to the inf.  So, yes, this is an issue one hopes will be addressed.

 

This might be a dumb question, but IRL how do Bradleys and the dismounts coordinate this? Obviously the 25mm with HE and API has a certain AOE greater than 7.62mm coax, but I'm not sure I'd want the Bradley blasting away with the coax if I was dismounted in proximity to the target area either! I'm sure there must be doctrine on this, I just don't know what it is!

[sburke]

24 minutes ago, absolutmauser said:

This might be a dumb question, but IRL how do Bradleys and the dismounts coordinate this? Obviously the 25mm with HE and API has a certain AOE greater than 7.62mm coax, but I'm not sure I'd want the Bradley blasting away with the coax if I was dismounted in proximity to the target area either! I'm sure there must be doctrine on this, I just don't know what it is!

I am not sure the doctrine would come anywhere close to CM play.  Due to some specific issues in game play particularly for the AI small arms isn't generally capable of friendly fire.  There are things we can get away with that in RL wouldn't likely even be considered,

[Ch53dVet]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 4:57 PM, Andy_101 said:

Okay, however it was a group of 7 men who split to enter the building, 2-3 of whom put themselves into the open in order to enter the building. Seems really counter-intuitive and not very realistic.

I had a similar situation when I set a squad to "Assault" the bottom floor of a three tiered building (Demo's training mission). The first team, of 4 men, entered, quietly, through the rear door, conflict free, and took up a covering position for the rest of the team. I, then, watch in horror as the second team, of 4 men, enter the backyard and scoot around the residence and out onto the street. Then, in single file, they enter the residence, through the front door, which, btw, was in full view of an, enemy held, adjacent, building, luckily, the enemy didn't react and the team safely rejoined the squad. 

[Milites]

Also had a strange occurrence in the training scenario.

Mild spoiler warning

Having ignored the suggested approach, for the training demo, (too much time in forests, too little time for MOUT) I found myself with ample time to clear the training complex. All my dismounts were rested or ready and only one squad had sustained a casualty, with good LOC to the platoon HQ.  I broke down two squads into four fire teams to assault a row of four, two story, buildings in a terrace, via the back door, so as to take out a BTR 60. The fire teams (I'll call them 1,2,3, 4) all rushed into their respective buildings but two opened fire with AT4's (1 & 2), KO ing the BTR but shaking the furthest fire team (4) , who actually were on top of the BTR, but failed to spot it! The shaken fire team then split, with two soldiers remaining prone and two running out of the door, turning right, and then proceeded to run past the three other fire teams (3,2,1) and turning the corner so they could reverse the process and enter Building 4 from the front entrance!

Luckily, I'd ordered the assault at the start of the turn and was able to halt the miscreants before they exposed themselves. To get the team together, I had to issue a move order out the back door, for them to rejoin which they eventually did. I'd only ever seen this behaviour in CMSF1 when terrain oddities caused advancing units to be so fragmented.    

Edited November 19, 2018 by Milites

[Andy_101]

On 11/18/2018 at 10:52 PM, Ch53dVet said:

I had a similar situation when I set a squad to "Assault" the bottom floor of a three tiered building (Demo's training mission). The first team, of 4 men, entered, quietly, through the rear door, conflict free, and took up a covering position for the rest of the team. I, then, watch in horror as the second team, of 4 men, enter the backyard and scoot around the residence and out onto the street. Then, in single file, they enter the residence, through the front door, which, btw, was in full view of an, enemy held, adjacent, building, luckily, the enemy didn't react and the team safely rejoined the squad. 

 

On 11/19/2018 at 12:17 AM, Milites said:

Also had a strange occurrence in the training scenario.

Mild spoiler warning

Having ignored the suggested approach, for the training demo, (too much time in forests, too little time for MOUT) I found myself with ample time to clear the training complex. All my dismounts were rested or ready and only one squad had sustained a casualty, with good LOC to the platoon HQ.  I broke down two squads into four fire teams to assault a row of four, two story, buildings in a terrace, via the back door, so as to take out a BTR 60. The fire teams (I'll call them 1,2,3, 4) all rushed into their respective buildings but two opened fire with AT4's (1 & 2), KO ing the BTR but shaking the furthest fire team (4) , who actually were on top of the BTR, but failed to spot it! The shaken fire team then split, with two soldiers remaining prone and two running out of the door, turning right, and then proceeded to run past the three other fire teams (3,2,1) and turning the corner so they could reverse the process and enter Building 4 from the front entrance!

Luckily, I'd ordered the assault at the start of the turn and was able to halt the miscreants before they exposed themselves. To get the team together, I had to issue a move order out the back door, for them to rejoin which they eventually did. I'd only ever seen this behaviour in CMSF1 when terrain oddities caused advancing units to be so fragmented.    

 

I was under the impression that these issues would be fixed with the updated patch and that SF2 was running with said updated patch ?  What gives ?