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John Kettler

Battle of Fallujah aspects analyzed--via minis and roundtable discussion with vets!

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One of the CoC guys posted this, and after watching it, I'm truly impressed. Superb visual aids, atmosphere out the wazoo (you'll see) and combat vets, some with three tours in Iraq. This looks like the BTDT and bought the T-shirt factory convention. Seemed like a great idea to share this, since CMSF2 is coming. LongLeftFlank will love this city section, the roundtable is insightful (full version on their site), and there is state-of-the-art miniature wargaming tech in use, too. What the veterans have to say about how they feel about doing modern wargaming is fascinating, and I'm glad the issue was discussed, for I'm wary about how I handle anything to do with war in Iraq combat with my brother, who barely got home in one piece after a VBIED encounter while on patrol in a MK19-armed armored Hummer. Was barely clear of it when it blew. Just enough not to be hurt. Others in his unit were not so lucky, and from a variety of combat causes.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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Force on Force is an interesting ruleset, I played around with it for a while. The scenario books are pretty great, and decent sources for CM scenarios.

One issue the rules have is that it revolves around contested dice pools of differing quality - so one squad might be rolling D6's and the other D8's, and you're essentially comparing the results directly. The problem with this ends up being that the difference in quality is massive (D6, D8, D10 and D12), and it gets into a death spiral pretty quickly. There are also quite a few ambiguities and weirdnesses around the ruleset. Still, it's cool. When we did play around with it we ended up using the scenarios and converting them to Crossfire instead, which is a minis system I really get on with.

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The fact that it makes a decent attempt at doing asymmetry is notable by itself, and obviously applicable to CMSF.

This was my attempt to recreate the first scenario from Force on Force: Road to Baghdad in CMSF 1 a while ago:
 

 

Edited by domfluff

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*Takes Bow*

 

I am "Brian" in this particular episode.   I "star" in three others from this season.   Speak to my agent for interviews.   :)

Full disclosure, I am not a veteran of Iraq II.  My time was before 2003/2004.  

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4 hours ago, domfluff said:

Force on Force is an interesting ruleset, I played around with it for a while. The scenario books are pretty great, and decent sources for CM scenarios.

One issue the rules have is that it revolves around contested dice pools of differing quality - so one squad might be rolling D6's and the other D8's, and you're essentially comparing the results directly. The problem with this ends up being that the difference in quality is massive (D6, D8, D10 and D12), and it gets into a death spiral pretty quickly. There are also quite a few ambiguities and weirdnesses around the ruleset. Still, it's cool. When we did play around with it we ended up using the scenarios and converting them to Crossfire instead, which is a minis system I really get on with.

Interesting take.   I actually find the differing dice pools my favorite feature of the ruleset.   Followed closely by the "reaction" features.   It simulates to quality differences among the sides well.   I won't give away the results of this scenario, but my plan involved making full use of the dice system.  

 

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I like Force on Force and the original, Ambush Alley. Black Ops, Spectre Operations, Wars of Insurgency, and Skirmish Sangin are all worthy Modern War rules as well. (I constantly go back and forth between miniatures and CMx2 gaming.)

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On 10/13/2018 at 12:00 AM, John Kettler said:

Seemed like a great idea to share this, since CMSF2 is coming. LongLeftFlank will love this city section, the roundtable is insightful (full version on their site), and there is state-of-the-art miniature wargaming tech in use, too. 

Interesting +1. 

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donfluff,

Was rather surprised to see the monster AAV-7 (in Woodland, no less) trundle up and disgorge such a horde--until I recalled how many it carried. Though it rivals a school bus in size, it's not to be messed with, provided it has good SA so doesn't get turned into scrap by an RPG or nastier. The debarking was bizarre, but once the troops were out of the vehicle, it was cool to watch them crawl forward. Their speed of movement as they advanced to the mosque, though was like watching Slow Motion film, and I didn't understand it. And I bet Mr. Major Wound wasn't impressed with "no man left behind" then, either. The smoke seemed anemic in terms of obscuration power, but that could've been some sort of rendering issue. Never played CMSF, so have no idea what connection, if any, exists between the depiction and actual performance. Other than that, your guys kicked butt and didn't have to pull back and call for FS. 

donfluff and White2Golf,

Turning now to representing force quality with different facet count dice, the way it's used is unusual, but 1) it seems to work well, and 2) the concept, per se, isn't alien to me at all, having played the original D&D which did the same thing for various weapon types. Loved the "see my agent" quip!

mjkerner,

The only rules listed I recognized were Force on Force. Never heard of the others.

MOS:96B2P,

I sure thought so. Had such a gaming itch after watching that video. Told my retired Cav Scout brother about the game, but he may or may not watch the video, after nearly being blown up by a VBIED, among other things, during his tour up in Anbar Province with the 3rd SBCT while on patrol in an armored Hummer mit MK19. 

Regards,

John Kettler

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JK, all are fairly recent rules (well, within last 5 years or so?).  The debarking in the vid is standard  debarking animation across all CMx2 games AFAIK, as is the Hunt command animation the troops are using to approach the mosque.

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4 hours ago, John Kettler said:

domfluff,

Was rather surprised to see the monster AAV-7 (in Woodland, no less) trundle up and disgorge such a horde--until I recalled how many it carried. Though it rivals a school bus in size, it's not to be messed with, provided it has good SA so doesn't get turned into scrap by an RPG or nastier. The debarking was bizarre, but once the troops were out of the vehicle, it was cool to watch them crawl forward. Their speed of movement as they advanced to the mosque, though was like watching Slow Motion film, and I didn't understand it. And I bet Mr. Major Wound wasn't impressed with "no man left behind" then, either. The smoke seemed anemic in terms of obscuration power, but that could've been some sort of rendering issue. Never played CMSF, so have no idea what connection, if any, exists between the depiction and actual performance. Other than that, your guys kicked butt and didn't have to pull back and call for FS. 

Oh, there are ton of things in that video which are extremely suspect from a tactical point of view - you can actually see an RPG round whizz past the AAV-7 as it crests the hill, which would have shortened the video considerably :)

(I'd like to think I've improved at CM significantly since then, but perhaps not).

It was mostly an experiment in using FoF as a source for CM scenarios - to compare, this is the same scenario on a tabletop (with a very different interpretation of scale): 

012.JPG


There was actually a triggerman on the right hand hill, and one of the buildings has an IED inside - the triggerman can sometimes blow up the building.

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