Newbie AAR: ncc1701e vs JoMc67

[Bil Hardenberger]

17 hours ago, Ivan Zaitzev said:

I'm no expert, and I don't want to be negative or rude or discourage you in any way but I would argue that you don't need to occupy the map, just the objectives.

I would argue that the the terrain and the objectives should be used as a combat multiplier.  You know that the enemy is going for the objectives, thus they give you a pretty good idea where you can find him (and in the turn write ups that is where he had the majority of his forces).  It is most important to defeat the enemy, do that and the objectives will come... I try not to obsess about objectives and orient on the enemy instead, using the terrain and the objectives as guides to kill enemy units... that is the path to victory. 

17 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

Do not worry, if I am here this is for learning from my mistakes. Occupy the map was not the good term. What I would like is to counter a possible move on my flanks. I know I am a little spread out and I have not done any reserve. Perhaps, I should have kept one squad in reserve and move only on one flank.

This may not be a bad thing if your units can support each other. for example if your units on the flanks can support the unit you have in the objective with fire then you are okay.. but if they can't, if the terrain blocks lines of sight to the terrain the enemy has to move through.. if your flank units are too far away to be effective... if they get engaged and are unable to provide support fire, if your plan is to use each small force independently, then you could be in trouble.

I always try to maintain a reserve.. however in these small fights you often can't afford that... maybe keeping a few BAR teams and your mortars back as a reserve would have helped, but I doubt it.  A reserve should be a capable force, capable meaning that it can be used to counterattack an enemy force as required.  You could have kept one full squad in reserve.. and maybe should have, but in this case I don't think its a big deal.

The big deal for me,  is that you have separated your platoon over a wide area and I suspect they cannot support each other... I probably would have sent scouts on those flank hills (two man teams) to provide early warning of an enemy flank approach, and then used the rest of the platoon in a command push towards the objective.  To secure it, take up defensive positions and defend against the enemy attack that will most likely come.  Make him attack you and you will be in the favorable position.  If you have to attack Objective 2, which is what it looks like is developing, then he will have the internal lines and can reinforce any threatened position. 

I would have probably only placed scouts and maybe support units (BAR teams and mortars) on the flanks.. but they have to be able to be close enough to provide effective fire support on the approaches between the two objectives, and most importantly be able to support your main force.

If you are going aggressive and only have a small force in Objective 1 and are planning on assaulting objective 2 from multiple positions, then good for you, and it will be fun when you get close.

16 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

MINUTE 8

On the left, the team that was in reserve is now moving forward.

On the right, in the woods, my men are tired. They won't last long.

MINUTE 9

I have stopped all progression. My men are resting. I think green troops are not a gift. Are regular troops more enduring? 

In the image above you have some really long Fast movement paths, and I don't see pauses at the end of each?  That probably contributed to them getting tired so quickly.  It also appears to me that your opponent has taken his first objective and is starting to place his units in defensive positions around it... this will be interesting to see how it plays out. 

I do love how deep you have moved on the flanks without being seen, at least as far as we can tell... this fight is on a razors edge and could go either way.

This is a really fine AAR, I do really love these small fights.  They are as fun to watch and dissect as they are to play.

Bil

[Combatintman]

@ncc1701e, I won't backseat drive your plan because I think these AAR threads are some of the best on the forums and I'm an average player so my input would probably be less than helpful compared to the other skilled players who are commenting on this thread. For a first effort this is good stuff and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

[Bil Hardenberger]

7 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

@ncc1701e, I won't backseat drive your plan because I think these AAR threads are some of the best on the forums and I'm an average player so my input would probably be less than helpful compared to the other skilled players who are commenting on this thread. For a first effort this is good stuff and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Combatman.. I am only providing such detailed feedback because he said this game has already been completed.. hope my comments weren't out of line.  Oh, and I suspect you are not simply the "average player" you claim to be.   

Bil

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

I would have probably only placed scouts and maybe support units (BAR teams and mortars) on the flanks.. but they have to be able to be close enough to provide effective fire support on the approaches between the two objectives, and most importantly be able to support your main force.

If you are going aggressive and only have a small force in Objective 1 and are planning on assaulting objective 2 from multiple positions, then good for you, and it will be fun when you get close.

The ability for the flank forces to support those in the centre is the key. As @Bil Hardenberger said let the terrain dictate your approach. When I saw your plan my thought was - cool he is going to play the terrain and kick some ass. If the enemy just drives through the valley and you can fire away on both his flanks at the same time the enemy is going to be unhappy. The important thing is that only works if those flanking forces can fire down into the valley - as Bil pointed out.

Watching to see how this goes.

 

36 minutes ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

45 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

@ncc1701e, I won't backseat drive your plan because I think these AAR threads are some of the best on the forums and I'm an average player so my input would probably be less than helpful compared to the other skilled players who are commenting on this thread. For a first effort this is good stuff and I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

Combatman.. I am only providing such detailed feedback because he said this game has already been completed.. hope my comments weren't out of line.  Oh, and I suspect you are not simply the "average player" you claim to be. 

Yeah - what he said

[domfluff]

Small unit actions are often far more parsable than larger ones - Company and Battalion level fights often (should) break down into Platoon actions in any case, so just sticking to a platoon lets you focus on the details, which also gives more to discuss. Tactical problems, etc.

For what it's worth - I do agree with Bil, the main concern is whether you're sufficiently mutually supporting, and that does seem doubtful at this point - you don't really want one of your squads to run into two or three of theirs, isolated. Now, on the other hand, if the Germans were all-in on a frontal attack, then the weak centre and strong flanks could let you pull off a nice double envelopment, so we'll see.

 

[Bil Hardenberger]

I will say that I do like the house rules being used in this AAR and might need to try a game using them (maybe with some modifications).  Perhaps @IanL is up for a challenge.  PM me if so.

[Combatintman]

2 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

Combatman.. I am only providing such detailed feedback because he said this game has already been completed.. hope my comments weren't out of line.  Oh, and I suspect you are not simply the "average player" you claim to be.   

Bil

Sorry if it came across that way mate - that was not my intent. I read all of your posts because every single one value adds.

[ncc1701e]

6 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

This may not be a bad thing if your units can support each other. for example if your units on the flanks can support the unit you have in the objective with fire then you are okay.. but if they can't, if the terrain blocks lines of sight to the terrain the enemy has to move through.. if your flank units are too far away to be effective... if they get engaged and are unable to provide support fire, if your plan is to use each small force independently, then you could be in trouble.

I always try to maintain a reserve.. however in these small fights you often can't afford that... maybe keeping a few BAR teams and your mortars back as a reserve would have helped, but I doubt it.  A reserve should be a capable force, capable meaning that it can be used to counterattack an enemy force as required.  You could have kept one full squad in reserve.. and maybe should have, but in this case I don't think its a big deal.

The big deal for me,  is that you have separated your platoon over a wide area and I suspect they cannot support each other... I probably would have sent scouts on those flank hills (two man teams) to provide early warning of an enemy flank approach, and then used the rest of the platoon in a command push towards the objective.  To secure it, take up defensive positions and defend against the enemy attack that will most likely come.  Make him attack you and you will be in the favorable position.  If you have to attack Objective 2, which is what it looks like is developing, then he will have the internal lines and can reinforce any threatened position. 

I would have probably only placed scouts and maybe support units (BAR teams and mortars) on the flanks.. but they have to be able to be close enough to provide effective fire support on the approaches between the two objectives, and most importantly be able to support your main force.

If you are going aggressive and only have a small force in Objective 1 and are planning on assaulting objective 2 from multiple positions, then good for you, and it will be fun when you get close.

Thanks for the good advices. Alas, the battle is over but still I am learning for next time. Your concern is valid. My squads are too spread and can support each other. I was willing to hide as much as possible my moves on the flanks and to perform a double envelopment.

[ncc1701e]

5 hours ago, Combatintman said:

and I'm an average player

But a wonderful scenario designer! 

[ncc1701e]

Thanks all for your support. Let's continue.

MINUTE 9

I forgot to mention that my 60mm mortar team was able to shot one single round that I have never seen coming back to Earth before been shot at by what seems to be a HMG. They were suppressed almost immediately.

MINUTE 10

On the left side, more Germans are coming my way. You can see in the foreground one of the team of the squad protecting Obj1. This team has LOS on the woods on the right of the screenshot if some Germans want to assault Obj1 using this path.

In the center, my 60mm mortar team is now useless and even fleeing

In the woods, on my right side, I have resumed Germans' hunting...

But, my own LMG is now deployed and can return fire. Great! 

Even if my 60mm mortar are pinned, I gave them the order to area fire the enemy position. Will see how this will turn out.

And, I have received this guy. I am wondering what can I really do with this one. Hopefully, the Germans don't have Javelins... Oups wrong game...

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by ncc1701e

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 11

Looks like I am not the only one to receive some new toy for Christmas.

On the left side, more and more Germans are reported.

In the center, smoke detected. If @JoMc67 goes all-in, I think I am doomed with my weak center. I am planning to fallback and delay his actions with the three teams there. The goal of my double envelopment is exactly what @Bil Hardenberger has pointed out: destroy the enemy after surrounding them.

7 hours ago, Bil Hardenberger said:

It is most important to defeat the enemy, do that and the objectives will come...

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 12

What are the Germans doing? On my left side, they are now following back from the hill apparently going to the halftrack.

My 60mm mortar team is back still unable to aim correctly. Green guys !!?

On the right, my teams are in overwatch position ready for the assault.

In the center, more smoke appears... 

The overall situation with my halftrack going on the left to support the incoming assault.

To counter an advance in the center, I count on three teams. One on the left, one in the center and the lucky team covering the right side.

I am ordering a Hunt move to the team in the woods to move it inside one of the house of Obj1.

 

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 13

My green 60mm mortar team continues to learn how to aim the damm thing... 

On the right, spotted Germans are been shot at. Brave guys!

And, on the right, the cavalry arrives

Overall situation, still no casualties at this stage. I am so surprised.

 

MINUTE 14

Oups, I am starting to receive some mortar fires in the woods near Obj1 where my team is located. For whatever reason, the Hunt move did stop and the team is not located into one house. My first wounded guy. 

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 15

Disaster! A mortar round almost decimate the team that has never reached the house.

At the exact same time, my mortar is finally arriving not so far of their objective.

Just to see the Germans falling back.

This is the signal for my attack on the right side.

Same thing on the left, this is time for my attack, time is running fast now...

Still no sign of the enemy assault in the center. This is a little bit strange.

 

 

 

[ncc1701e]

23 hours ago, Falaise said:

Bonjour

great
it's captivating, keenly the following

Merci bien 

[ncc1701e]

MINUTE 16

In the center, still no sign of the enemy. Why sending so many smoke? I am blind. I am sure there is something I do not see.

On the right, there is no opposition to my assault.

But, pressing the button to give my orders, a bad surprise awaits me

Edited October 15, 2018 by ncc1701e

[ncc1701e]

FINAL SITUATION

Here are two views of the battlefield without FOW. Looks like a single Panzerschreck team won the day...

[ncc1701e]

MY CONCLUSION

At the beginning, my goal was to destroy the enemy avoiding a costly direct assault. I was thinking @JoMc67 will do about the same. Thus, my flank moves to 1) counter his possible moves 2) do a double envelopment to destroy the enemy.

I have just forgotten three things:

1) The objective. I was looking after the enemy and, for me, the objectives had no values. But, at the end, my panicking team has cost me lots because no other teams were in the vincy of Obj1. Thus, my sudden death...

2) Time. My METT-T was wrong on the time. I had only 15 minutes (not 20) plus 5 minutes extra possible.

On 10/14/2018 at 2:27 PM, ncc1701e said:

TIME

I have only 20 minutes to reach both objectives plus 5 minutes extra possible.

3) Concentration of forces. As already pointed out by others, no squad was able to support the others. And, I think I was willing to do too much with too little men.

Thus, at the end, thank you and congratulations to @JoMc67. I really enjoy PBEM. Much more entertaining than playing a computer. 

[JoMac]

And, a Good Game Indeed :-)...Thou, if time didn't run-out, and you did tightened-up your Squads a bit (not spread-out too far apart) on the flanks, then you would have been in better shape then me.

I was going to be on the defensive most of game (especially playing standard German Inf) by having my Squads closer to objective, and only moving out on the flanks a little to counter your far flanking...I also figured the last few turns to take a chance and move-in a Inf Section (AT Team in this case) behind the smoke screen in hopes it would survive and not be located by games-end.

In anycase, this is just a Test PBEM Meeting Game (with 2-3 others coming soon) to give you an idea of Human Opponent, House Rules, Game Mechanics, Tactics, etc, and along with help from other Forum Members.

Joe

Edited October 15, 2018 by JoMc67

[JoMac]

Also, I modified the 'House Rules' slightly this game so that it would make it easier for ncc1701 to understand...Below are what the 'House Rules' would normally look like:

1* No Pre-Planned Arty (or Area-Fire from Ground Units) on Turn 1 of a Meeting Engagement, or from Defender. Player will need to Call-In Arty normally (Attacker in Attack/Defense Games are exempt and can use Pre-Planned Arty).

FO & HQ Units will need to Spot or have knowledge of Enemy Units or Icons on Battlefield to Call-In Arty (click on your Unit to see if it spots Enemy Units or Icons). Once that knowledge has been obtained then it can call in Arty Anywhere at Anytime on the Battlefield w/o restrictions.

2* Players will let the Computer AI choose what Targets to shoot at (player can't choose Targets)...However, 'Direct Area-Fire' and Smoke is still allowed at any Location on the Map.

3* Units can check LOF (line of Fire, and thus Area-Fire) at two locations per turn...Once before Movement (exact location of Unit at beginning of turn), and at the first Waypoint (doesn't matter how short or long the Waypoint is)...However, if you check LOF at that Waypoint, then you must keep that Waypoint (w/o any alterations) until beginning of next Turn Movement Orders.

This will reduce the unrealistic infinite number of times a player can conduct LOS/LOF checks during a turn.

4* Area-Fire has to be roughly within 2x Action-Spots (360 degrees) to any Enemy Unit/Icon (this includes Direct HE fire from Onboard Arty...Smoke can still be anywhere on map)...Arty called in by an HQ or FO is exampt and can be conducted anywhere on the Map.

5* Players Can't click on Enemy Icons or Units during a Game.

6* Vehicle Smoke Dischargers (not Smoke Shells) is controlled by the Computer AI, and not by the Player (this helps prevent the unrealistic over use of Smoke Dischargers by players to mask friendly movement).

* House Rule #4 is not used in Attack/Defense Games...A Player can still normally conduct 'Direct Area-Fire' at any point on map.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm also play testing these quick C&C House Rules below (I know BH, and couple others have their own system) to be adopted at some point in future:

Player can conduct Movement Orders normally, however, if Units are out of C&C of parent PHQ (dark red line), then an Automatice 15 sec 'Pause' is issued to all those units affected (except there is no Pause allocated to units using  the 'Evasive' Command')...If PHQ is out of C&C of Higher HQ (CHQ, BHQ) then an Automatic 1 minute (60 sec) 'Pause' is issued to all Platoons affected.

I generally don't play anything bigger then up to Reinforced Company size engagements, but for those who play Battalion size engagements, then maybe a 5 minute delay for CHQ's not in C&C of BHQ's.

Anyways, something along the above...

Edited October 16, 2018 by JoMc67

[ncc1701e]

7 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Thou, if time didn't run-out, and you did tightened-up your Squads a bit (not spread-out too far apart) on the flanks, then you would have been in better shape then me.

Perhaps but final assault would have been hard. Speaking of it, do you guys have general guidelines for interval's distance between elements?

For the same platoon, a squad must not be at X meters from another one?

For the same squad, a team must not be at X meters from another one?

[domfluff]

Distance is really about communication, and thus depends on terrain.

You can see the C2 connection in the UI - LOS, spoken, far, etc. 

Generally speaking, you want all of a unit to be able to see each other, or at least all of them being able to see their HQ - otherwise when (for example) your forward scouts come under fire, you won't have the ability to respond, and they'll just get isolated. The closer they are (the better the C2 link), the faster they'll share spotting information, and the better they'll react to threats.

This means that distance is terrain dependant - in close woods they may have to be very close indeed, whereas open terrain allows them to spread out a little.

The best guide on how C2 works in Combat Mission:

 

In terms of how much space a unit can be reasonably expected to command, that comes down to "frontage"

 

That gives you a very rough idea of the amount of space a given unit was expected to be responsible for - it's not necessarily how far apart they're spaced, since that's more terrain dependant than anything.

[Oliver_88]

2 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

Perhaps but final assault would have been hard. Speaking of it, do you guys have general guidelines for interval's distance between elements?

For the same platoon, a squad must not be at X meters from another one?

For the same squad, a team must not be at X meters from another one?

I'm no great shakes and I've not as yet done anything other than played against the computer in combat mission. But I tend to go with whatever distances and positions I can get away with so long as those keep the C3 chain intact to some degree. For what that constitutes I refer you to the thread on C2 and information sharing that @MOS:96B2P posted, also the thread that @Josey Wales posted about unit morale and etc.

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:42 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

 

The distance information can be shared vertically (chain of command).

Voice C2: Up to six action spots, approximately 48 meters. If either unit is on Hide then the distance is reduced to approximately 16 meters.

Close Visual C2: Up to 12 action spots, approximately 96 meters. This is also the maximum distance a higher HQ can fill in for a lower HQ. Example: Company or battalion HQ fills in for a platoon HQ and provides C2 to the platoon's fire teams. 

Distant Visual C2: As far as the unit’s line of sight.  (In the experiment I had units in distant visual C2 at 40 action spots, approximately 480 meters before I stopped.)

Radio C2: Entire map.  In the WWII titles, CMSF & CMA - C2 via backpack radio is lost during foot movement. C2 is maintained during foot movement in CMBS.

The distance information can be shared horizontally (directly between teams).

Up to four action spots, approximately 32 meters. (Sometimes a team had to move to within 3 action spots)

 

 

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 12:50 PM, Josey Wales said:

C2 - Command & Control

C2, or Command and Control, reflects the effect of having a unit being able to receive orders from and deliver information to its HQ team.

Being within a C2 link does not provide resistance to the persistent impact on Morale caused by Combat Stress.

Being within a close C2 link (Close Visual/Voice) does provide resistance to the impact on Morale caused by Combat Shock - troops within C2 range of their HQ unit are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale as they are less stressed by being shot at and the immediate impact of seeing team/squadmates killed & wounded is reduced.

More experienced units pass on information to their buddies and superiors quicker than less experienced units. This includes verbal, visual and radio communications.

The range of visual and audio C2 is fixed for all Soft Factors, Morale and Fatigue states but will vary by terrain. In open ground;

: Voice range < 50m (unless the HQ is hiding in which case voice range drops to <25m)
: Close visual range <100m 

 

 

[domfluff]

It's interesting to consider that 46m "voice C2" range.

If you had the three squads of a platoon in "broad wedge" ("V") formation, with the HQ and any support assets floating in the centre,  and each squad six action spots away,from it, that'll mean the platoon spans just under 100m of the battlefield, or the average attack frontage listed above. Voice range will allow your platoon to react fastest to spotted contacts, and support each other with fire.

In practice, this will be dependant on terrain more than anything - it's no good having a squad bimbling around in the open, just to get the C2 bonuses.

  

[Oliver_88]

3 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

FO & HQ Units will need to Spot or have knowledge of Enemy Units or Icons on Battlefield to Call-In Arty (click on your Unit to see if it spots Enemy Units or Icons). Once that knowledge has been obtained then it can call in Arty Anywhere at Anytime on the Battlefield w/o restrictions.

Isn't that part in your house rules sort of broken due to this;