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John Kettler

More drama in Ukraine--Sea of Azov

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2 hours ago, IMHO said:

You have the right to do that providing you follow the orders of the Marine Administration resposible for that water zone.

No.....He's Ukrainian, so he can do or say whatever the **** he likes, apparently.  :rolleyes:

 

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Russia openly attacks Ukraine for the first time under its own flag.

The next day VTB, the 2nd biggest russian bank is on a verge of bankruptcy, having just lost $12 bln into the unknown void.

Just a coincidence, as any other such coincidence for the past 5 years. Just sayin'

Keep calm and blame Ukraine for the things you do - it always works.

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To all guys who said about Russia grabbing something.

Did you ever hear about Russian ship "Nord", that was captured by Ukrainians in Azov sea? Just because she visitited Crimia ports. Captain is still in prison. Ukrainians refuse to release him. I think that you didn't. Am I mistaken?

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38 minutes ago, Holien said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Let's see what we were discussing?

Ukrainian ships attacked by Russian forces...

Pathetic.....

Try this one for size:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_equivalence

PS - And it begins.....Poroshenko bravely fighting Russia, to the last American:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crimea-latest-russia-petro-poroshenko-mike-pompeo-vladimir-putin-donald-trump-a8655106.html

He might want to keep in mind that if the US and Russia do go to war, it will be the last.  :mellow:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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10 hours ago, IMHO said:

Haiduk, you know that - again it's written right in your own decree of Ukrainian Transportation Ministry on how to cross Kerch Strait.

BTW, say me... Minesweeper and two Raptor class boats, which passed the strait in 14:00 to meet two other our gundoats beyond the bridge in Azov sea... They also warned Kerch and Kavkaz ports in 48 hours before passing? %) 

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6 hours ago, DMS said:

Did you ever hear about Russian ship "Nord", that was captured by Ukrainians in Azov sea? Just because she visitited Crimia ports. Captain is still in prison. Ukrainians refuse to release him. I think that you didn't. Am I mistaken?

Yes, mistaken. According the Agreement of 2003 year about shared use of Azov sea, Russian and Ukrainain vessels can sail free and conduct any lawful activity. Key word here "lawful". If "Nord" had Russian jurisdiction, our Border Guard would not have rights to detain it. But "Nord" before 2014 had Ukrainian jurisdiction in Kerch and, because of Crimea annexation didn't recognize, for Ukrainian laws "Nord" still consider in Ukrainmain jurisdiction. For these four years captain didn't receive new license for fishing in Azov sea in Ukrainain office. Thus, the trowler was detained for illegal fishing. Accusation in illegal crossing the border was additional. Crew was fined, the captain accused by art.249 "Illegal fishing" and art.332-1 "Violation of the order of entry into and exit from temporary occupied territory of Ukraine in order to cause the detriment to interests of the state".

Edited by Haiduk

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10 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

No.....He's Ukrainian, so he can do or say whatever the **** he likes, apparently.  :rolleyes:

 

And Russia can ram another nation’s ships as opposed to registering a complaint with an international body?  C’mon man your bias is showing. 

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2 hours ago, sburke said:

And Russia can ram another nation’s ships as opposed to registering a complaint with an international body?  C’mon man your bias is showing. 

They're Russians. That's how they do things. Remember Flight 707?

<_<

Michael

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4 minutes ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Agreed, but that would be KAL Flight 007, not to pick too fine a nit.

You're absolutely right. And there has never been a nit too fine to pick. :D Thanks for jogging my aged memory.

Michael

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4 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

They're Russians. That's how they do things. Remember Flight 707?

<_<

Michael

Iran Air 655? US as a role model? Ukrainian Air Defence vs Siberia Flight 1812? Or is it selective amnesia?

Edited by IMHO

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18 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Iran Air 655? US as a role model? Ukrainian Air Defence vs Siberia Flight 1812? Or is it selective amnesia?

Or MH 17.  

They are all wrong, none of them make any of the rest right. One difference is the US incident was settled in an international court and the US did provide a substantial monetary settlement. 

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12 minutes ago, sburke said:

Or MH 17.  

They are all wrong, none of them make any of the rest right. One difference is the US incident was settled in an international court and the US did provide a substantial monetary settlement. 

1. "As part of the settlement, even though the U.S. government did not admit legal liability or formally apologize to Iran, it still agreed to pay US$61.8 million on an ex gratia basis..."

2. I'm not saying any of them is right the point is Michael's statement is generalising separate human mistakes into national traits.

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9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Four years for illegal fishing?

Not four jears of jail, but the captain during these four years (since 2014) didn't get new license in Ukraine, thus, from the point of view of Ukrainian law his activity was illegal. 

For illegal fishing art.249 suggests the fine (up to 88100 UAH=3019 USD) or up to three years of freedom limitation with confiscation of means of fishing.

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9 hours ago, sburke said:

And Russia can ram another nation’s ships as opposed to registering a complaint with an international body?  C’mon man your bias is showing. 

We use the name Kerch Strait but to be precise Kerch Strait is not navigable due to shallow waters. Ships go through an artificial channel called Kerch-Enikal-Channel (KEC). Since it's quite narrow ships have to follow certain rules on how to pass to prevent disasters. Ships do not go alone but rather assembled in controlled convoys before entering KEC from either side. There are speed limits, weather limits, no overtaking rule, one way sailing at any given time and many other rules on how ships should sail in KEC.These are not some "special Russian" rules - they are given in Ukrainian Ministry of Transportaion order of 2002 I gave above. And first and foremost since the end of 19th century the traffic in KEC was under control of Kerch Marine Administration that acts akin to air traffic controller for KEC. So given all this background:

  1. Say Ukrainian airliner heading for La Guardia would stop following air traffic controller orders and starts randomly roaming around NY city skies? What would be the procedure?
  2. Can ships go through Panama Channel as they please and not follow marine traffic controller orders?
  3. You suggest Russian ships should file a compaint. Why you consider Ukrainian ships behavior acceptable when they put in risk all the traffic over KEC? Why Russian not Ukrainian ships should bother about complaints if they believe they were unfairly treated by Marine Administration?
  4. Do you suggest if say a passenger plane is not happy with its position in the landing queue it has every right to disobey air traffic controller orders and just short-cut to landing at the time of its choosing?
Edited by IMHO

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6 minutes ago, IMHO said:

We use the name Kerch Strait but to be precise Kerch Strait is not navigable due to shallow waters. Ships go through an artificial channel called Kerch-Enikal-Channel (KEC). Since it's quite narrow ships have to follow certain rules on how to pass to prevent disasters. Ships do not go alone but rather assembled in controlled convoys before entering KEC from either side. There are speed limits, weather limits, no overtaking rule, one way sailing and many other rules on how ships should sail in KEC.These are not some "special Russian" rules - they are given in Ukrainian Ministry of Transportaion order of 2002 I gave above. And first and foremost since the end of 19th century the traffic in KEC was under control of Kerch Marine Administration that acts akin to air traffic controller for KEC. So given all this background:

  1. Say Ukrainian airliner heading for La Guardia would stop following air traffic controller orders and starts randomly roaming around NY city skies? What would be the procedure?
  2. Can ships go through Panama Channel as they please and not follow marine traffic controller orders?
  3. You suggest Russian ships should file a compaint. Why you consider Ukrainian ships behavior acceptable when they put in risk all the traffic over KEC? Why Russian not Ukrainian ships should bother about complaints if they believe they were unfairly treated by Marine Administration?
  4. Do you suggest if say a passenger plane is not happy with its position in the landing order it has every right to disobey air traffic controller orders and just short-cut to landing at the time of its choosing?

I’m saying that if an airplane didn’t follow traffic regulations you wouldn’t ram it would you? And the analogy to NY doesn’t hold. Not much you can do with a tugboat to threaten anyone.  The Russian response is ridiculous no matter the spin on regulations. This isn’t the first time Russia has practiced that kind of behavior including against US ships. 

Edited by sburke

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2 hours ago, sburke said:

Not much you can do with a tugboat to threaten anyone.

Really? Igor Mosiychuk, a rep in Ukrainian Parliament, gave a fiery speach about how Ukraine needs to blow up the Crimean bridge (it's goggle'able). So first Ukrainian statesmen threaten a terrorist act, second they wonder about stiff response from security services. Very logical.

Edited by IMHO

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44 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Really? Igor Mosiychuk, a rep in Ukrainian Parliament, gave a fiery speach about how Ukraine needs to blow up the Crimean bridge (it's goggle'able). So first Ukrainian statesmen threaten a terrorist act, second they wonder about stiff response from security services. Very logical.

Oh Christ. Really? That is the Russian defense now, we thought that it was a tbied? Tugboat borne ied? Sounds not much different than the various excuses for MH 17.  

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2 hours ago, sburke said:

Oh Christ. Really? That is the Russian defense now, we thought that it was a tbied? Tugboat borne ied? Sounds not much different than the various excuses for MH 17.  

There is no need for defense. There's a procedure for passing the Strait, it existed many years before the current conflict and long before the Crimean bridge. The procedure was approved by both sides - I gave you the document of Ukrainian origin. The procedure is absolutely logical, the reason is ship traffic safety and this very reason is given in the Ukrainian document as well. The boats broke their own Ukrainian procedure, they got stopped and impounded. This is it! But sure you can tell us a story how say some East Timor parliament rep brags about blowing up Golden Gate bridge, East Timor sends few armed artillery boats to California Coast, the boats ignore marine traffic controllers orders and the boats are allowed to pass unhindered under the Golden Gate Bridge. The US Navy and Coast Guard just... emmm... "File complaint with international body".

"This [US] is a unique, exceptional country. Russia is unique, but not exceptional" One can substitute "Russia" for "any other country the US dislikes for some reason".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism

Edited by IMHO

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16 hours ago, sburke said:

And Russia can ram another nation’s ships as opposed to registering a complaint with an international body?  C’mon man your bias is showing.

I was making word play on the actual radio conversation between the vessels.....Check out a transcript, it's enlightening.  :mellow:

Poroshenko is now bravely fighting Russia down to the last NATO member:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/29/russia-blocked-ukrainian-azov-sea-ports-minister

What an utterly laughable little man!  :lol:

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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9 hours ago, IMHO said:

Iran Air 655? US as a role model? Ukrainian Air Defence vs Siberia Flight 1812? Or is it selective amnesia?

You can't compare either of those to KAL 007.

There's no good excuse, but yours were both heinous mistakes with missiles.  007 was observed closely by fighters and was still shot down in cold blood, then it was all denied until the Russians were forced to admit it.  But they went on to laughably claim it was a US spy flight testing their air space.

No selective amnesia about that at all.

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