More drama in Ukraine--Sea of Azov

[IMHO]

1 hour ago, hobo said:

curious how you know the names of those on the UKR ships

1 hour ago, hobo said:

I will stick with my original analysis

The names are all overe the press here - both RUS and UKR. I'm curious how do you do your original analysis if you don't read the sources?

 

[IMHO]

1 hour ago, hobo said:

I have a hard time believing he would give away two of his 6 gunboats to create such an incident

May be it wouldn't be so bad for Petro Poroshenko personally. These boats are the only new ships built for UKR Navy after independence - no other has ever been budgeted. And, bingo, they're built and sold by the shipyard belonging to Petro Poroshenko himself. One gives away two boats one has to replace two boats...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyurza-M-class_artillery_boat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznya_na_Rybalskomu

Edited November 27, 2018 by IMHO

[IMHO]

Actually the funniest thing is UKR boats broke not the Russian procedure of passing Kerch Strait but exactly their own Ukrainian regulation The procedure is laid in the decree of the Ukrainian Ministry of Tranportation of 2002 (http://zakon3.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/z0973-02) Anyone can google-translate it and see for themselves that this is exactly what RUS Coast Guard was demanding over radio and PA from UKR boats. In a pre-2014 situation it was UKR coast guard that should have stopped and detained these three UKR boats for their transgressions, by force if the need arose.

Edited November 27, 2018 by IMHO

[Holien]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46345853

Yet another terrority grab by Russia...

Keep up that belief that Russia is in the right and a mere victim of Ukrainian elections..

Certain people in past history did the same *ull*hit and it did not end well for that nation and leader let's hope everyone else don't have to suffer for this land and sea grab.... (Too many have already, be they innocents in planes or people picking up perfume bottles left by tourists)

[Haiduk]

SBU officers were from counter-intelligence service. They maintained standard tasks of supervision over radio communication using, information coding etc. One of the officers was heavy wounded when Russian jet or helicopter (there is several sources, which say about Su-30, Su-25, Ka-52) fired two unguided rockets in gunboat "Berdiansk". Coast Guard ship "Izumrud" shot in it with 6x30 mm gun. The bridge of gunboat was hit, almost all crew injured. Knowingly one sailor has traumatic amputation of fingers on the hand, other has hard hip injury with large blood loss.

Damages of "Berdiansk"

 

All holes from the portside. Most intersting first photo - there are many discussions what ordnance could make such big hole. Versions are: 1) 76 mm shell of ASW-corwette "Suzdalets", which later seized gundoat "Nikopol", but Russians claim only "Izumrud" fired with 30 mm gun, 2) S-8 rocket or ATGM with inert part, fired from the air, 3) just effect of 30 mm shellm which hit in armored superstructure, when other two holes this is 30 mm shells, which hit unarmored part.

 

[IMHO]

44 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

They maintained standard tasks of supervision over radio communication using, information coding etc.

Standard tasks you say... Are SBU officers part of the standard ship compliment? Why does the Commander of the Ukrainian Navy have no idea SBU officers are onboard his boats taking part in arguably the most important operation of many years of his yet the Head of SBU is well informed about it?

48 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

1) 76 mm shell of ASW-corwette "Suzdalets", which later seized gundoat "Nikopol", but Russians claim only "Izumrud" fired with 30 mm gun, 2) S-8 rocket or ATGM with inert part, fired from the air, 3) just effect of 30 mm shellm which hit in armored superstructure, when other two holes this is 30 mm shells, which hit unarmored part. 

Gyurza-M "armor" is mere 5-10mm of steel-aluminum composite - about as strong as side or back hull of an old BTR/BMP of Soviet times. If it were S-8 or marine 76mm they'd have had a half a meter whole at least if not blown to pieces.

[Haiduk]

13 hours ago, DMS said:

FSB claims that gunboats entered Russian waters that were Russian before 2014.

Pffff... Here official Russian version of incident: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3430077.html With coordinates. I moved its on the map. So, where this "pre-2014 Russian waters"?  Waters in the channel are shared according Agreement of 2003. Also it's clear that warning shots was made withing "12-mile zone", unrecognized by nobody and juridically Ukrainian, but gunbpat hit was happened already in neutral waters - on the distance more than 12 miles.  

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Haiduk

[Haiduk]

1 minute ago, IMHO said:

Standard tasks you say... Are SBU officers part of the standard ship compliment?

In the social networks now is sharing the order for commander of "Nikopol": "to conduct SECRETIVE passing... ". On previous ships, passed in Azov sea, there are troopers of 801st anti-sabateur detachment were placed, which also not standard ship compliment. Counter-intelligence SBU offcers also were on these ships. Or you want to say, there are no attached FSB officers on Russian ships, which conduct a far sailing? 

[IMHO]

8 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Pffff... Here official Russian version of incident: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3430077.html With coordinates. I move its on the map. So, where this "pre-2014 Russian waters"?  Waters in the channel are shared according Agreement of 2003. Also it's clear that warning shots was made withing "12-mile zone", unrecognized by nobody and juridically Ukrainian, but gunbpat hit was happened already in neutral waters - on the distance more than 12 miles.

So what about them breaching its own Ukrainian regulation on passing Kerch Strait? I put the link above - the decree of UKRAINIAN Ministry of Transportation of 2002 that requires ships to file a request with Kerch Marine Administration 48, 24 and 4 hours before attempting to pass the Strait? The UKRAINIAN regulation states that it is done in the name of safety of shipping traffic through the tightness of the Strait.They didn't do that - they were in breach of even their own regulation.

[IMHO]

6 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

In the social networks now is sharing the order for commander of "Nikopol": "to conduct SECRETIVE passing... ". On previous ships, passed in Azov sea, there are troopers of 801st anti-sabateur detachment were placed, which also not standard ship compliment. Counter-intelligence SBU offcers also were on these ships. Or you want to say, there are no attached FSB officers on Russian ships, which conduct a far sailing? 

1. The previous passage of Kerch Strait by Ukrainian Navy ships was on Sept, 23rd, 2018. The procedure for passing the Strait was honored and both Ukrainian Navy ships came to Berdiansk safe and sound.
2. My belief is FSB officers happen to be present on ships with regular complement of mere six people only on "special occasions". I mean six is not enough to fit in Big Brother watching unless absolutely necessary
3. Offtopic: I'd say "concealed" or "undetected" would be a more accurate translation. The original is "skrytno" not "sekretno".

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, Holien said:

Certain people in past history did the same *ull*hit and it did not end well for that nation and leader

Oh I don't know, Dubya doesn't seem to be doing that badly. 

[Haiduk]

2 minutes ago, IMHO said:

So what about them breaching its own Ukrainian regulation on passing Kerch Strait? I put the link above - the decree of UKRAINIAN Ministry of Transportation of 2002 that requires ships to file a request with Kerch Marine Administration 48, 24 and 4 hours before attempting to pass the Strait? The UKRAINIAN regulation states that it is done in the name of safety of shipping traffic through the tightness of the Strait.They didn't do that - they were in breach of even their own regulation.

Russian version say Ukrainian group didn't give a request. Here Ukranian version. Requests were sent between 20:30 and 22:00 of 24 Nov, when UKR group staned on anchor point in 15 miles from the strait. But dispatchers of Kerch and Kavkaz ports ignored requests and didn't answer. Before Ukr group anchored, in 20:00 24th Nov Coast Guard boat with callsign "Velbot" transmitted information about temporary restriction for military vessels for strait passing from 22:00 24th Nov to 22:00 26th Nov. But this information wasn't transmitetd according to established order. To clear situation in 3:58 of 25 Nov "Berdiansk" at last could communicate with coastal post of FSB and port Kerch and Kavkaz about intending of passing through the strait. Instaed answer, coastal post BEREG-23 communicated with ASW-corvette "Suzdalets" about detection of Ukrainian group. After this Russian vessels started maneuvering around our group. "Дави его, блядь! Дави!"

[Haiduk]

29 minutes ago, IMHO said:

1. The previous passage of Kerch Strait by Ukrainian Navy ships was on Sept, 23rd, 2018. The procedure for passing the Strait was honored and both Ukrainian Navy ships came to Berdiansk safe and sound

Both wasn't combat ships. Reaction of Russia was too nervous, so next passing of ARMED COMBAT vessels could be serious strike on image of Russia among population (I have read that hysteria comments, when Korets and Donbass passed - "Что эти хохлы себе позволяют?! Потопить к х...ям!!!"). So Russia has chosen the variant of requsts ignoring (in order to say after - you didn't request in 48, 24 hours) and at last "you shall not pass", though by 2003 Agreement military and commercial vessels under Ukrainian and Rusian flags have a right of free passing through the strait. And military vessels have a rigt of primary passage, according decree of Ministry of Transport 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

12 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Russian version say Ukrainian group didn't give a request. Here Ukranian version.

They have to file 48, 24 and 4 hrs before. They breached the procedure anyway even in Ukrainian version. Add to this they have to let Kerch Maritime Administration pilot to guide the ship through the Strait. This procedure is not some special requirements for Ukrainian Navy - all ships including Russian ones have to stick to it or they would be denied passage through the Strait.

[Haiduk]

11 minutes ago, IMHO said:

They have to file 48, 24 and 4 hrs before. They breached the procedure anyway even in Ukrainian version. Add to this they have to let Kerch Maritime Administration pilot to guide the ship through the Strait. This procedure is not some special requirements for Ukrainian Navy - all ships including Russian ones have to stick to it or they would be denied passage through the Strait.

Niether I nor you can't say anything about there was breached procedure or not - each side stay on own right. But "breached procedure" - is this ocassion to make a "racing", ramming, "airshow", firing and capturing? Is this always happens, when some vessel anchors in the strait and at that moment gives a request for passing and waits for decision several days?  

Edited November 27, 2018 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

1 minute ago, Haiduk said:

Niether I nor you can't say anything about there was breached procedure or not - each side stay on own right

Why? One takes Ukrainian version of events and read it against the Ukrainian Ministry of Transportation decree of 2002. One sees the breach of it.

4 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

But "breached procedure" - is this ocassion to make a "racing", ramming, "airshow", firing and capturing?

If you take my honest opinion - I'd rather have Ukraine come back to pre-2014 times, peacefully vote Yanukovich out of office (and he would have been duly voted out) and build a Western-oriented economy and democracy as it's due. If you take me for one of those Rusvesna or "Russian world" lunatics - I'm far from it.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

23 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Is this always happens, when some vessel anchors in the strait and at that moment gives a request for passing and waits for decision several days?  

That's not what happened though is it?  The Ukrainian vessels chose not to follow their own procedure and charged straight at Russia's shiny new bridge.....Really, what did they expect was going to happen? 

It's just lucky for your crews that Russia has rather more patience than me. 

From my understanding of the new world rules ('Might Makes Right') it seems pretty clear that the Sea of Azov is Russia's pond and that you guys will need to start building some new ports.....Does Poroshenko own a company that builds ports too? 

10 minutes ago, IMHO said:

If you take my honest opinion - I'd rather have Ukraine come back to pre-2014 times, peacefully vote Yanukovich out of office (and he would have been duly voted out) and build a Western-oriented economy and democracy as it's due.

That's just cruel.....We all know what 'Western-oriented economy' does to developing nations! 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[IMHO]

18 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's just cruel.....We all know what 'Western-oriented economy' does to developing nations! 

What?

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I get the impression you missed the nineties? 

[IMHO]

55 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I get the impression you missed the nineties? 

Steal all you can steal? Very post-Soviet approach

[hobo]

4 hours ago, Holien said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46345853

Yet another terrority grab by Russia...

Keep up that belief that Russia is in the right and a mere victim of Ukrainian elections..

Certain people in past history did the same *ull*hit and it did not end well for that nation and leader let's hope everyone else don't have to suffer for this land and sea grab.... (Too many have already, be they innocents in planes or people picking up perfume bottles left by tourists)

They are not going to stop until they fully control all of eastern Ukraine.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

2 hours ago, hobo said:

They are not going to stop until they fully control all of eastern Ukraine.

Well the US controls the western half, so that all seems very equitable to me. 

[Haiduk]

9 hours ago, IMHO said:

peacefully vote Yanukovich out of office

Блажен кто верует. This is the same to say Russians can peacefully and free vote Putin out of Kremlin. It's important not how to vote, but how to count (C) Stalin.

9 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's not what happened though is it?  The Ukrainian vessels chose not to follow their own procedure and charged straight at Russia's shiny new bridge.....Really, what did they expect was going to happen? 

Charged? Ahah. Kerchian strait is shared for free sailing of ships under Ukrainian and Russian flags. We could just sail there and just slowly cruise around strait there and back again with full right to do that. As weel as Russian military ships according to that agreement can free come even to Mariupol. 

You forgot to post a picture with laughing Iskanders. 

[Holien]

Haiduk thanks for the continued updates it is very clear what happened and as usual the story of liesis just a media misinformation attempt to put a fig leaf over it.

A pity that Europe is not closer to be able to help stop bullies grabbing terrority.

Hobo I agree it is very clear what Russia is doing and at some point they will go too far.

The small people will suffer for the choices made by dictators.

[IMHO]

2 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Charged? Ahah. Kerchian strait is shared for free sailing of ships under Ukrainian and Russian flags. We could just sail there and just slowly cruise around strait there and back again with full right to do that. As weel as Russian military ships according to that agreement can free come even to Mariupol. 

You have the right to do that providing you follow the orders of the Marine Administration resposible for that water zone. It's just like for the planes - plane may have the right ro fly somewhere yet they have to follow the orders of air traffic control to the letter. Haiduk, you know that - again it's written right in your own decree of Ukrainian Transportation Ministry on how to cross Kerch Strait.

1 hour ago, Holien said:

A pity that Europe is not closer to be able to help stop bullies grabbing terrority.

It's a pity other countries are not so willing to come and solve Ukrainian problems at their own expense. It's traditional Ukrainian approach in this crysis. Its best application is weapons sales. On the one hand Ukraine begs Europe and the US for free-of-charge weapons claiming it does not have enough, yet on the other it's selling its own weaponry it's supposed to use in the conflict to other countries. Because when Ukraine gets someone else's weapons - its free of charge, and when it sells - someone in Ukraine (Petro Poroshenko) makes money. Very profitable!

Edited November 28, 2018 by IMHO