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Mousie

Is it just me, or are the tanks given to you for the tutorial completely worthless?

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So, I've been trying to learn how to play on the tutorial mission, and I've realized something: The armor given to you is completely useless.Let me explain my situation

So, my plan is to attack through the north field. This would allow me to avoid their anti tank gun with concealment, and a few of their regiments thanks to the bushes along the road. Here's the biggest problem: *Armor can't run over hedges*. For whatever reaeson the tanks can't go through gaps in hedges or or fences something, but they must always drive along the road and then come back off of it.

I don't know what gun Germany is using in this scenario, but one hit from it leaves the tank combat ineffective, and I can't issue any more orders to it, which means they'll just keep attacking it until it's destroyed. This gun has overwatch across half of the map, so the moment a tank has gone on the road, they are in extreme danger.

 

So, I guess my question is, what's your advice on using these things? I haven't been able to find a "fire on the move" button, and opening up seems to do absolutely nothing for your line of sight sadly, when that was a huge part of of going hull down, your commander directing the gunner so he ecould fire at what he couldn't see from that position. I really could us some advice.image.png.c2580ac817b6ca8ecf7ec541b91860fe.png

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Firstly you will benefit from Googling the numerous tutorials available on uTube etc.  

In this specific scenario it's best to use you inf to scout ahead and do the spotting. When the inf have spotted the enemy AT assets your mortars should be used to kill enemy AT assets first B4 committing one's powerful, but vulnerable tanks.

When you bring up your tanks you need to pulverize enemy positions quickly - one by one.  The trick is to find locations for your armor from which they can shoot at one enemy unit while no other enemy units can shoot at your armor.  ie: Overwhelm with firepower.

 

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Those hedges are actually bocage. Normandy fields were separated with piles of rocks and vegetation that was many many years old. They are impassible to tanks. There are gaps in the bocage but only some of them are big enough for a tank to go through. Given that you have to plan your movement accordingly.

Let you infantry lead the way and let them spend time in a location to spot the enemy. Once you spot them you can position your tanks or mortars (I think I remember mortars in the training mission) to deal with what you have spotted.

Shooting on the move is as simple as plotting your move way points and then issuing target orders for the tank - and you can change the orders at each way point. If you don't also add pauses to those way points your tank will fire on the move. Normally WW2 tanks would move and stop to fire and then move again but the game cannot quite handle that so they abstract it by letting them fire on the move instead - just with reduced accuracy. Watch out though for strong dips or rises in the terrain. I have had tanks go over a bump at just the moment they fire and end up with an HE round hitting 20m in front of the tank. Friendly fire is not very friendly.

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2 hours ago, Mousie said:

So, I've been trying to learn how to play on the tutorial mission, and I've realized something: The armor given to you is completely useless.Let me explain my situation

Actually, on the Contrary, this Tutorial Scenario is designed so the Allied Player has a Good chance of winning with enough Armor, Arty, and Infantry to fight w/o much issue...Yes, you will have a small setback at first, but will easily prevail in the end.

Below is basically a lengthy Step-by-Step info of that Tutorial:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Combat+Mission+AAR+Tutorial&view=detail&mid=2B6C5FA5D02BC2220E5C2B6C5FA5D02BC2220E5C&FORM=VIRE

Edited by JoMc67

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I think I'm failing because I'm playing this like Men at War: Assault Squad 2. Trying to push up, flank and stuff.

A problem I'm having is that fire starts getting exchanged incredibly early, when I'm not ready for it. Either my units are opening up, or the enemy is, I'm not sure. I'm not able to advance to the first bocage up north without taking fire from an unknown direction. What's the best way to work on my engagements? Any advice?

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ranges in this game are much more realistic.  MOW:AS2 had very unrealistic ranges, so one could maneuver quite easily.  Here, if AT gun/tank can see you, it can take shots at you.  Remember that most tank combat takes place at around 400m or more.  200m is basically point blank range for guns.

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I played MOW:AS2 for a long time, was really glad when I switched to this game. It can be very difficult because it's very realistic.  Fortunately you very easily modify a scenario, which I did a lot as a beginner.  I would add extra tanks & men so that I could be more successful despite being a novice.  Stick with it, you will get better.  And if a scenario is too hard, just add some more stuff and try it again. 

Also, you can do quick battles, choosing meeting engagements and giving yourself more stuff (there's a setting for that).  The human can win those more easily because you can move faster, get into position and blast away while the enemy is moving up.  Kinda fun sometimes, really 😀

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Is it possible to add more time? I've lost three times because I failed to capture a point in time, just broke through their lines as time expired, and lost all my units.

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5 minutes ago, Mousie said:

Is it possible to add more time? I've lost three times because I failed to capture a point in time, just broke through their lines as time expired, and lost all my units.

Yes, just go in the 'Scenario Editor' and look for the name of the Scenario, and you will be able to change Units, Times, Terrain, etc, etc. 

Edited by JoMc67

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First make sure you both read, and understand, the Briefing. Rather than wandering off down the road, or the right hand field. Your first point of call should be the position marked "Overwatch". Give your HQ's and troops, "Target Arcs" so that they don't fire at once. Once you have got Jerry rattled with your mortars, you can then remove your "Target Arcs" and build up fire superiority, allowing your infantry to advance one objective at a time. Their is a large gap in the hedgerows on the left. You just have to study the map during the set-up phase to find it. 

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First of all, I'd say that going up the right side of the map is going to be a hard slog. I took one look at it and decided not to try it. I never have. Going up the left side of the map is fairly easy as long you are patient and methodical.

Start by sending your infantry scouts and armored cars up to the area labeled "Overwatch", but don't place the ACs directly behind the hedgerow, they'll just get shot up if you do. Instead, place them about an Action Spot back and dismount the crews. On the next turn, give the crews a short Covered Arc and move them right next to the hedgerow. Do the same with the Scouts when they arrive. Everybody should be observing, not shooting, at this point.

When the First Platoon arrives, move them up to the hedgerow and distribute the teams along it. Don't bunch them up, that just makes them a more lucrative target. Let them fire away at whatever they can see. The Scouts and AC crews should help them obtain sightings.

When the First Platoon arrives, you will also receive a couple of tanks. I suggest that you move them behind the hedgerow on the far left side where they will be protected from the AT guns and can fire at the barn on the St. Martin Farm. The reason you want to do that is to kill any Germans hiding in the barn. You're going to have to do that eventually anyway so you might as well do it now when the tanks are not otherwise occupied. Let the tanks fire for a minute or two until the barn is completely demolished.

The mortar that came with the First Platoon should be placed behind the hedgerow where it can fire at one or both of the AT guns. When the Second Platoon arrives with more tanks, you can distribute them either at the hedgerow (if there is enough room to deploy them) or just back of it. You want to position their mortar as well where they can shoot at the AT guns if you haven't taken them out yet.

Now it is time to get down to business. You should have killed or suppressed enough of the enemy in front of you to start your attack. There are already two gaps in the hedgerow, one large enough to allow the passage of tanks that is left of center and a smaller one only wide enough to pass men on foot just to the right. You need one more large opening and fortunately you have the means to do so. The Scout team has two demo charges which are needed to blow a gap wide enough to pass tanks. You should have already have placed them at the far right end of the hedgerow where it joins the east-west hedgerow. That's where you want to blow the gap. Now that you have three gaps you can start pouring troops through them. Use the full width of the field for this and leapfrog your teams in such a way that one can be returning fire while the other two are moving or vice versa.

You should position your troops so that one platoon is on the left while the other platoon is on the right as this allows them all to stay in command. You need to send a squad to the St. Martin Farm to clear out any bad guys with some armor support. When that is done, leave one team there to occupy the objective and send the other two to rejoin the general advance.

As the platoon on the right advances, its teams should be taking up positions along the east-west hedgerow so as to bring fire on any bad guys on the other side of the road. Continue doing this as you advance across the field. When a field has been cleared of enemy units by flanking fire, you can leapfrog your teams forward to clear out another field.

The platoon on the left should have making tracks toward that wall that the enemy started out behind. Now they can angle off to the right a bit because that is where the last objective, the Intersection, is. Also you can send a squad or two to help out the platoon in clearing the fields on the far right. That platoon may be starting to run a little low on ammo about now.

Well, in outline that is about it. Wash, rinse, and repeat. I've omitted a lot of details like what to do with your armor to keep them alive and effective, but I thought it best to leave some things for you to figure out. But this should be enough to get you started. BTW, this is the version of the scenario that is the first battle of the "Task Force Raff" campaign. The demo version is a little different, but the basic philosophy is the same.

Michael

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Lots of good advice here.  One thing you will notice is that most experienced users will play turn-based, not real time.  I thought I wanted real time, but turn based is actually way more fun because you can replay from anywhere.  That will also help you with time management.  And remember that if there's a nice, easy path to you objective then the enemy knows that too and is waiting for you.  That's a big part of these scenarios -- the enemy is set up in pretty clever ways, striking you suddenly as you move into some restricted field of fire they've set up. 

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19 hours ago, Mousie said:

Here's the biggest problem: *Armor can't run over hedges*. For whatever reaeson the tanks can't go through gaps in hedges or or fences something, but they must always drive along the road and then come back off of it.

I don't know what gun Germany is using in this scenario, but one hit from it leaves the tank combat ineffective, and I can't issue any more orders to it, which means they'll just keep attacking it until it's destroyed. This gun has overwatch across half of the map, so the moment a tank has gone on the road, they are in extreme danger.

So, I guess my question is, what's your advice on using these things? I haven't been able to find a "fire on the move" button, and opening up seems to do absolutely nothing for your line of sight sadly, when that was a huge part of of going hull down, your commander directing the gunner so he ecould fire at what he couldn't see from that position. I really could us some advice.

Yeah, it's not a simple scenario. I lost myself more than one Sherman too. I think the Germans are using the Pak 40 in that scenario, could be the Pak 38. Those are really good AT guns, arguably the best. The Pak 40 can turn your Sherman into a smoldering trash can with one shot.

The bocage stunned me, at first, as well. I could not believe some hedges could be a serious obstacles until I started reading some Normandy memoirs. These bulwarks of thick dirt, rocks and wood are a force of nature. Your success in Normandy depends on if you can use it better than the Huns.

How were they dealt with? Well, nothing short of a demolition charge can break it -- do not waste valuable HE ammo on it (I've tried). Specialized Sherman variants were created that had giant metal teeth on their front that could cut through. They were a much needed solution to the bocage problem. The sappers/engineers/pioneers are invaluable and carry demo charges, you need to command them to BLAST through the bocage. This will open a path for your tank through the hedge and let you go where the enemy does not expect.

Remember tanks are useless without infantry. Even with today's technology the situational awareness of an infantry man is better. The bocage is infantry's best friend. Not only does it provide serious resistance to bullets and shrapnel -- but it also conceals its tenants (Paks aren't the only ones that can benefit). Bring up your rifle squads to take cover behind the hedgerows and they will look beyond. Only move up a tank where you are 80% certain that there are no AT weaponry deployed (including panzerfausts).

Much like you need infantry to cover your tanks. You need tanks to cover your infantry. Germans rely on their excellent GPMGs to keep your squads pinned, snipers to murder your NCOs and grenades to blast any GI that gets too close. Your tanks are immune to all these. Their HE can destroy enemy strong points and do not be afraid to use it at suspected enemy positions. With a tank nearby, your infantry can rest easy -- as it will outgun anything shooting at them. Move up your infantry when a tank is watching their intended destination.

LOS is indeed a valuable commodity in Normandy. Look for better elevated positions or positions overlooking fields unobstructed by the bocage. Put HQs with radios there, so you can spot and report any enemy contacts.

Last piece of advice: try to think like a German. I'd even suggest watching documentaries to really understand their goals in Normandy. More practically, think where they would deploy an AT gun, or an MG. The Fritz thinks of force multipliers (most of their power is tied up in the East), and has the choice of terrain -- which means he need to optimize his assets. What does this mean for you?

a. Roads are either mined or have AT guns pointed at them.

b. They have spotters overlooking any entrances/exits from/into the bocage.

c. They do not have enough AT assets or men to secure every possible angle of attack.

d. All they need is 1 AT gun to suppress 3 tanks, or 1 MG to suppress 3 squads.

e. Do not pool your assets into a single path of attack.

f. You need to sneak up on them from the least obvious angles. Take your time to position your forces well.

g. To maximize effectiveness launch simultaneous attacks from different directions.

h. Your tanks have weapons an ammo up the wazoo. Sometimes sending copious amounts of HE and MG fire at shadows can flush out, suppress, demoralize or destroy unsuspecting enemies. 

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and to this excellent list I might add OBSERVATION.  look for unit w binoculars (split the squad if part of a bigger squad).  Put the minimum men w binoculars at places where you can look toward your objectives and hopefully you can start spotting the bad guys.  Recon makes a big difference.  Send smallest possible forces forward first.  Just don't send me out on point Sir, I don't want to die 😀

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Posted (edited)

As someone playing these games for several years, it’s refreshing to see this scenario through a newcomer’s eyes. I remember struggling with similar issues to what you are describing. I lost the first time I played. Maybe even the second. It was an eye opener, as I came to CM from the same game as you, MOW:AS. 

Looking back, what I see as sage advice above, was not so obvious to me back then. 

A couple of points:

  • you don’t need to edit this scenario to win. You have the forces and time needed to win handily, if you don’t lose your cool and take your time.
  • finding your enemy is more then half this battle. You really do need to split some squads, and move them carefully forward. But remember that spotting requires sufficient time for actually looking. Moving units can spot stuff, but still ones spot a lot better.
  • if you’re taking fire, try to bring sufficient units to hose the area you think the fire is coming from. It may expose the enemy unit as they try to move or back away, and then you have them.
  • everything seems to take more time in these games than in MOW. That’s normal. I know you want more time, but I suspect if you slow down a bit and see your enemy and can engage them effectively you will end up needing less as you won’t bog down as easily.
Edited by Bud Backer
Bloody typos

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As Bud Backer said, this can be easily won with the forces at hand.  And it can be won many different ways.  It's not like those games where there's just on magical answer sewn into the scenario.  For experienced 'commanders' this is an easy clearing of a roadblock.  The german troops can be seen from far away.  We have mortars (there's mortars, right?).  That's a tricky one for new users, getting arty called in and on target, but it becomes 2nd nature after a while.

Most Normandy scenarios there's too much foliage, hedgerows, etc, to see far enough ahead.  The germans here can be seen.  So they can be killed.  If the AT gun can be surpressed w machine gun/mortar fire, a tank can more into position to blast that area into oblivion.  but be careful, there might be more than one AT gun, so try to get the tank peeking through somewhere that only gives an angle for that one area. 

Oh, and remember that Shermans can fire smoke.  They can mask movement of men or tanks into position such that when the smoke clears you have clear shots at AT gun.  He might get one of you, but he won't get two.

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On 9/28/2018 at 12:05 AM, 37mm said:

"Bushes"

Bocage101.jpg?resize=720,340&ssl=1

Would be helpful if the bocage actually looked more like that in the game too. Then probably more newcomers wouldn't be so confused.

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Maybe one day, the game will have Hedgerow 1, Hedgerow 2, Hedgerow 3, etc etc etc. All of varying heights, thicknesses, and made up of different types of trees, and soils. But, I can't imagine it is top of BFCs to do list.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Would be helpful if the bocage actually looked more like that in the game too. Then probably more newcomers wouldn't be so confused.

The problem I have with Hedgerows in CM (especially Tall) is that Troops can just run-up to it, start spotting, then fire through it in a matter of just a few seconds...I'm sure in RL that it would have taken a minute or so (probably several) to move-up, navigate through or top of a Hedgerow before attempting to spot, and fire (unless said Hedgerow is already key holed by Defender ahead of time). 

Edited by JoMc67

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7 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Maybe one day, the game will have Hedgerow 1, Hedgerow 2, Hedgerow 3, etc etc etc. All of varying heights, thicknesses, and made up of different types of trees, and soils. But, I can't imagine it is top of BFCs to do list.

I don't think anybody asked for that - just that the graphics better reflect that the hedgerow is unpassable.

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8 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I don't think anybody asked for that - just that the graphics better reflect that the hedgerow is unpassable.

Some of my first posts were asking for this. Personally I still get confused between low bocage and hedges. After a lot of experience I tend to realize I have that problem so I spend extra time when there is any doubt.

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2 minutes ago, IanL said:

Some of my first posts were asking for this. Personally I still get confused between low bocage and hedges. After a lot of experience I tend to realize I have that problem so I spend extra time when there is any doubt.

Yeah, some of my first posts too :) That's why I can sympathise with the guy now asking again.

Of course, after some time, you start to get used to the way the game works.

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2 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

That's why I can sympathise with the guy now asking again.

For sure +1 there.

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