They meant september of next year!

[Snake726]

8 hours ago, sburke said:

Don't take it so hard.  My career is in IT and after some 30 + years.. trivial would be an upgrade.   

I suppose that I mean, what's more important - mowing the lawn, filing your taxes?

Perhaps I don't sympathize too much with the plight of a game developer having to speak about being late, since for the past 4 months part of my own job has been getting on a call every two weeks to tell our licensor that our project is 2 months behind. I do admittedly wish I could just throw that Skype laptop out the window, but eh, that's my job.

[edit - Although, maybe I should try telling them that it's "just a game", and that will get them off my back!]

Edited September 29, 2018 by Snake726

[LongLeftFlank]

Holy cow, 7 pages!

Clearly the Alan Parsons wasn't enough. 

In the meantime, try the buffet, and don't YOU go changing... 

[Snake726]

7 pages, hoo boy, the page count on this sucker is now officially almost as long as a children's flip book - do you think people will have to call Google and ask for a few more gigs in their Gmail inbox?

[BletchleyGeek]

45 minutes ago, Snake726 said:

do you think people will have to call Google and ask for a few more gigs in their Gmail inbox?

Funny thing is that with your message I just discovered that email threads in Gmail can only be made of up to 100 messages.

Edited September 29, 2018 by BletchleyGeek

[General Jack Ripper]

11 hours ago, Mord said:

THAT would surprise me considering the 30th is Sunday. LOL.

Geez. I'm so busy I don't even know what day it is anymore.

[sburke]

9 hours ago, Snake726 said:

I suppose that I mean, what's more important - mowing the lawn, filing your taxes?

Perhaps I don't sympathize too much with the plight of a game developer having to speak about being late, since for the past 4 months part of my own job has been getting on a call every two weeks to tell our licensor that our project is 2 months behind. I do admittedly wish I could just throw that Skype laptop out the window, but eh, that's my job.

[edit - Although, maybe I should try telling them that it's "just a game", and that will get them off my back!]

LOL I can totally relate.  I won't even start on some of the project issues I am having.  It would take too many beers and it waters down too much when I cry in it.

[Vet 0369]

Has any one stopped to consider that BF might actually be anticipating releasing the Demo by 9/30, but isn't saying anything in case some of those horrible little software bugs start munching the code? Come on, give it a rest. It's not like any of you have shelled out any money for the demo. If you already bought a preorder, well IT'S A PREORDER! You made the choice to buy it!

[Thewood1]

Again, not the date, its the comms.   Just like I and others have said before.

[The Steppenwulf]

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Has any one stopped to consider that BF might actually be anticipating releasing the Demo by 9/30, but isn't saying anything in case some of those horrible little software bugs start munching the code? Come on, give it a rest. It's not like any of you have shelled out any money for the demo. If you already bought a preorder, well IT'S A PREORDER! You made the choice to buy it!

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:

Quote

The obvious question out there is "when will CMSF2 ship?" We're aiming for no later than the end of September. However, we'll soon release a demo with 4 battles and a training mission. That should help keep you occupied for a while

https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product. If BF can't make the window, that's fine (we understand) but update us with the revised window. E.g. is it weeks or months, or next summer? (EDIT: And we are not even onto the issue re overdue patch releases)

Expecting the Developer to offer a simple update is not unreasonable when the customer has parted with cash for a product not yet received!

But we are going over old ground already established in this thread....

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Come on, give it a rest.

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by The Steppenwulf

[Dynaman216]

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Has any one stopped to consider that BF might actually be anticipating releasing the Demo by 9/30, but isn't saying anything in case some of those horrible little software bugs start munching the code? Come on, give it a rest. It's not like any of you have shelled out any money for the demo. If you already bought a preorder, well IT'S A PREORDER! You made the choice to buy it!

No - since they have a general policy of not releasing things on weekends.  Besides the point since they said the demo was going to be "soon" to tide us over for the retail release no later then the end of September.  (I'm fairly certain they did state it was an estimate on the release date however)

[mirekm61]

Hi

For everybody interested, how the boss at work to determine how much it will take us to complete the task. It is possible to self-advise BFC how to determine the date of release of the game.
At the beginning of August, the boss asks when we are finishing the project, we know from our previous work and experience that it will take us 2 months. We, however, answer the duration of the formula:  time x 2 plus half the time. In this case, it's 2 months x 2 = 4 plus 1 month, which means we get 5 months. The boss can shake his head for a long time, but you know he will not do it himself at the time.
Now we can act smoothly and the thread does not bother us. If we do it sooner then everyone is happy, and we can tell that we were doing after hours, nights, on weekends to speed up, etc.

Sorry my english.

[Ultradave]

Many years ago, my group leader on the phone promised to deliver something by a date we knew we'd miss by 3 weeks. But the guy from Naval Reactors was adamant. "You absolutely CANNOT miss this date. So are you going to meet the date?"  So Bob said, "Yes, sir".  After he hung up we both asked why he told him that knowing that THEY hadn't given us data we needed yet and it would be 3 more weeks assuming we got the data tomorrow.

He told us "Don't worry about it. You just keep working. I'll handle him. But let me tell you something. Ten years from now he won't remember if you were late, but he WILL remember if you are wrong."  

We always tried to keep our commitments but we made sure it was right first (these are nuclear submarines we're talking about, so a little more critical than a wargame/simulation).

[ncc1701e]

9 minutes ago, Ultradave said:

Many years ago

It happen to me, in my job, no later than this week. You can introduce Agile, Lean, Safe... plenty of principles. At the end, it is done when it is done.

[Vet 0369]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Your argument is weak because it is factually incorrect. The full game release window is end of Sept not the demo:

https://www.battlefront.com/

Secondly if a customer has paid for something they have a right to know when to reasonably expect to receive the product.

The only reason this thread is continuing is because of weak retorts from those trying to defend BF,  that then bring posters back to reiterate the same inescapable truths about this whole matter. 

First of all, my statement wasn't "weak." Your own quote from BF was "We're aiming for no later than the end of September.." Please explain to me just how that equates to "We WILL release no later than the end of September!" If you purchased a preorder, then you purchased it knowing that the release might not happen by the end of September. Unless you've actually read Steve's threads about what has been  involved, the only thing you've participated in is whining and complaining.

Every long-time member of this Forum knows that Steve and BF don't generally give updates and estimates for exactly the reasons highlighted by this thread. Whether we like it or not, BF doesn't engage in frequent updates no matter how much users whine and complain about how "THEY" would do it if it was "THEIR" company. 

I don't defend any company unless someone makes unfounded accusations about that company. It is what it is, and no amount of toxic whining, complaining, and "bovine scatorium" comments are going to change that. It will not force BF to issue any more status updates than they do now. If you bought the preorder, and are that upset, vote with your Dollars, or Pounds, or Punts, or Euros, or whichever exchange you use, and CANCEL YOUR PREORDER! Then you can buy it at full price after it's released. That could have a larger impact than whining about it here.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Mord]

One more day and we can have a thread on the game being late! Oh boy, that will surely bring us all together!

I heard a rumor through a VERY reliable source that Steve signed a deal with Paradox for SF2!

 

Mord.

[Lethaface]

Lets stop doing the same thing while expecting different results. At least, this threads seems to revolve about exactly that. It's insanity.

Ill try to be productive and think of a realistic way the 'bone updates' plus 'expectations'/ planning could be handled in such a way that everyone is happy. Maybe others can chime in, as I do seem to remember Steve saying something along the likes that 'if anyone has a good solution for the updates that works for everyone, he's all ears' in the last bone threads a few months ago.  Not sure though, could be the pod
At least coming up with a productive and realistic proposal that most of the community supports seems better than the repeating infighting about the ever recurring 'when is it finished?' subject.

Realistic in such a way that BF.C will still be BF.C and Steve will still be Steve: weekly/monthly dev updates/diaries whatever are not on the table. Neither are accurate release dates. Those, gentleman, are the facts.

Now, my 0.02:

* Quarterly bone updates. Similar to the 'bone' updates Steve has given in the past. Quarterly doesn't mean a fixed date, a bit more flexible than that but still people would know sumfink more about when to roughly expect info's. Maybe Steve and or others at BF could find themselves in something like this which is a little more 'regular' compared to the current bone update schedule. I'd think it would be a welcome 'gesture' to the raving refresh monkeys too.
* No predicted 'release dates' since they don't work, it's all fantasy which somehow gets people angry. If there need to be relative moments in time posted, I would suggest going for 'strive quarters' for predicted release windows. As in 'we strive to have you guys playing this in Q3 2018'. These striving quarters could be updated in the quarterly update and are sort of expected to be subject to change. 
* Separate rant threads for people that wish to rant, where only rants are allowed.

 

[sburke]

19 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

* Separate rant threads for people that wish to rant, where only rants are allowed.

 

I was so tempted to start that as soon as you suggested it.  LOL 

Rules

rants only allowed

no one is allowed to contradict or disagree with the rant. 

You can create your own rant with a contradictory position, but not as a reply or argument to any other rant.

 

 

[Mord]

3 minutes ago, sburke said:

I was so tempted to start that as soon as you suggested it.  LOL 

Rules

rants only allowed

no one is allowed to contradict or disagree with the rant. 

You can create your own rant with a contradictory position, but not as a reply or argument to any other rant.

They'd go broke on server fees in three days. If the site didn't explode first...

 

Mord.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Mord

[Wicky]

Maybe it''s an overdue baby - how do we induce? Hot currry and jog or do go for a C-section

[The Steppenwulf]

52 minutes ago, Vet 0369 said:

First of all, my statement wasn't "weak." Your own quote from BF was "We're aiming for no later than the end of September.." Please explain to me just how that equates to "We WILL release no later than the end of September!"

As stated your facts were incorrect; you drew reference to the DEMO with regard to the WINDOW, and BF statement was explicitly in reference to the GAME. That undermined your position entirely. If you cannot see that then it's impossible to reason with you.

As previously stated over and over again (some people do seem to have grasped this) it isn't about a specific date, it's simply about good customer relations to provide an update when it becomes clear that the window is going to have to shift. If I hadn't paid approx £100 then maybe I wouldn't care, but if the window has moved to Christmas I have a right to know that this the case, request a refund and use the money on family xmas gifts instead.

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Unless you've actually read Steve's threads about what has been  involved, the only thing you've participated in is whining and complaining.

 You seem to to jump from one wild assertion to another - all without any factual basis.  Unless you've been following my reading and posting on these forums you know nothing about me! And if you had, you'd know that your assertions are wrong!

1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Every long-time member of this Forum knows that Steve and BF don't generally give updates and estimates for exactly the reasons highlighted by this thread. Whether we like it or not, BF doesn't engage in frequent updates no matter how much users whine and complain about how "THEY" would do it if it was "THEIR" company. 

Again this is blurring the truth to suit your assertions. In fact BF do give updates and they do offer windows for game release. I could trawl through the forums and offer you many, many examples of this. However, and to reiterate yet again, this issue is simply about communications. Nonetheless Steve, himself in May (again I've already posted a link to this in an earlier post in this very thread), apologised for not providing a more recent update. If you are right and BF think that updates are either not important, counter productive, or adverse to BF's business practice, then please explain why he provided a comprehensive update on;

1) SF2, 
2) the situation with the patches,
3) Black Sea,
4) Red Thunder, and, 
5) The new website.

AND MOREOVER, he apologised for not having done this much sooner!

[Lethaface]

34 minutes ago, sburke said:

I was so tempted to start that as soon as you suggested it.  LOL 

Rules

rants only allowed

no one is allowed to contradict or disagree with the rant. 

You can create your own rant with a contradictory position, but not as a reply or argument to any other rant.

 

 

Like you can rant about ranting, but not directly directed at another ranter. Good rules me thinks!

[sfhand]

 

[Snake726]

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

'if anyone has a good solution for the updates that works for everyone, he's all ears' in the last bone threads a few months ago.

 

I'll re-post this then; this is how you communicate via updates and manage release expectations in a carbon-copy situation to a small, hardcore wargaming community concerning a game being developed largely in the free time of the creators: https://www.wargamedesignstudio.com/quick-links-to-all-blog-posts/

The team size is probably about the same, and notice how heartwarming it is to see comments like "Thanks for the update!"

They are even in the same position - but the community there is not upset: 

"We have in the past said that it takes us between 18 months to two years to complete a title. With the two-year mark passed last December that is obviously not the case here. The main reason for the delay has been the additional work required in 2016 & 2017 to get both Wargame Design Studio up and running (just web and blogs take up significant time) as well as the Gold updates for Panzer Campaigns and the coming refresh of all the Civil War Battle titles. Throw in the Panzer Battles Demo and upgrade of both Normandy and Kursk to the new Wargame Design Studio standard and there has been a lot to distract us from North Africa. The good news is that we’re back focused on this title (and everything else) and the aim is to get the game out this year. That said, it will be done when it is done."

Edited September 29, 2018 by Snake726

[Erwin]

So that people can keep up with the discussion process:

[Snake726]

Graham's "hierarchy of disagreement" is, well stupid - a great example of a software developer getting the bright idea that rhetoric exists (without, of course, reading Aristotle or the like - Graham independently discovered rhetoric!)

The day I take the co-founder of Y-Combinator seriously will be the day I dump all my science and philosophy books into the trash, along with my brain, and get an MBA.