They meant september of next year!

[Battlefront.com]

On 10/12/2018 at 12:01 PM, SgtHatred said:

If Ford sold me a car with a radio without a volume control I'd be pretty annoyed. You sold an upgrade to your game that added the ability to mute the music. It's hard to argue that basic audio controls shouldn't have been part of the base game.

Sure, you can argue that.  You can also argue that a car doesn't have enough cup holders or they aren't in the right place.  I have a car that has two cup holders IN TOTAL and they are in the back seat.  I don't expect an upgrade any time soon And don't even get me started on the iPod interface in my Honda which I know will never be fixed.  Bloody thing doesn't even power down the iPod when you turn off the ignition, but instead forces it to run the battery down to zero (among other serious problems).

We didn't feel the mute music feature was necessary at all, so that's why it wasn't included for years.  Eventually we heard enough complaints that we put it into an Upgrade because that was the next thing we had on the docket for release.  We are not going to waste (I do mean WASTE) our time making patches to back date something like this into earlier versions.  That's just silly.  Plus, the Upgrade had plenty of real improvements to warrant the $10 price tag.

Also keep in mind that any feature that goes into an Upgrade is "free" for all future purchases because we wrap the Upgrades into whatever comes next.

Quote

You can't seriously be complaining that other people are unreasonable when your stated position is that you don't know if your game is ready to launch until 10 minutes prior and that acknowledging a missed release window when it becomes obvious it will be missed is too time consuming, yet spend 10x as many words complaining publicly that your customer base isn't entirely rational. 

Er, no.  I never said it is too time consuming to say "the game's not ready to ship yet, we don't know when it will be until it is".  What I said is there's no point to it because there's nothing new.  Customers demanding that I come here on a regular basis to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over again definitely isn't "entirely rational".

Quote

$150 for a new game with all the trimmings is fine. Games are expensive to make. It's the 21st century, money practically grows on trees now. Games across the board should go up in price.

I agree with you that some games are totally under priced for the amount of play they provide.  But I don't think they should go up in price across the board or evenly. 

Steve

[The Steppenwulf]

8 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

 

Er, no.  I never said it is too time consuming to say "the game's not ready to ship yet, we don't know when it will be until it is".  What I said is there's no point to it because there's nothing new.  Customers demanding that I come here on a regular basis to repeat the same thing over and over and over and over again definitely isn't "entirely rational".

I

1)  There is no problem with not committing to a release window... so why did you offer one?  You made a rod for your own back by doing so - don't blame customers for not being 'rational'  as a result.

2)  Opening up for preorders, when the customer is not actually charged until the game is released (as many companies do) is a perfectly acceptable practice. However currently you have customers money in your back account with no update about receipt of the goods ..... and you do not recognise that this is a problem? This is not 'irrational' on the part of the customer to be slightly irked about your lack of consideration regarding this issue!

[McMortison]

@The Steppenwulf +1

This is why I cancelled my pre-order for the big bundle yesterday. I already own CMSF so I will buy the upgrade as soon as it is available. 

The lack of communication made me re-think my willingness to support BF by paying extra money.

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

1)  There is no problem with not committing to a release window...

Maybe not with you, but you do not speak for all customers as they do not necessarily speak for you.  There's always a demand for us to outline release timeframes.  We compromise by putting out a timeframe only when we think we can hit it.  Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.  That's just the way it goes.

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so why did you offer one?  You made a rod for your own back by doing so - don't blame customers for not being 'rational'  as a result.

Customers are not rational by nature.  What we do, or don't do, has no influence on that at all.  If we satisfy a customer one way, then a customer will be dissatisfied in another way.  There's absolutely no way, at all, to make everybody happy.  I've been in this business for more than 25 years now and that is just the way it goes.  I don't blame customers for being who they are, but I do explain things so that at least there's an understanding of why we do/don't do things a particular way.

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2)  Opening up for preorders, when the customer is not actually charged until the game is released (as many companies do) is a perfectly acceptable practice. However currently you have customers money in your back account with no update about receipt of the goods .....

True.  Unfortunately our system doesn't allow for "delayed capture", therefore it's a choice between offering perorders with immediate payment or not offering preorders.  Since a customer has the ability to choose to participate or not, we leave it in the customers' hands.

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and you do not recognise that this is a problem? This is not 'irrational' on the part of the customer to be slightly irked about your lack of consideration regarding this issue!

Sure, it's rational.  However, it's also rational for people to be patient and trust that the game will be out as soon as it possibly can be.  Pus, let's remember that I *do* communicate with customers about the status.  I'm doing it right now.  What I don't do is come here every single time someone complains about not being told they have to wait.  So it's all about where the line is drawn and obviously I have a different opinion than some.  There is no hard and fast rule about any of this, so opinions can differ.

54 minutes ago, McMortison said:

@The Steppenwulf +1

This is why I cancelled my pre-order for the big bundle yesterday. I already own CMSF so I will buy the upgrade as soon as it is available. 

The lack of communication made me re-think my willingness to support BF by paying extra money.

It's up to you, of course.  Personally, I find that to be a rather small thing to get peeved about in the grand scheme of what we do.  Again, how much of a difference does it make in practical terms if I come here every couple of weeks to post an update that "the game isn't ready" and posting every single day?  The game won't be out any sooner or any later either way.

Steve

[c3k]

Okay. Cool. I've read all this and this is my takeaway: pre-orders will ship next September with just empty boxes.

Or did I misunderstand something?

[domfluff]

If my takeaway came in an empty box I'd be really upset.

[c3k]

Just now, domfluff said:

If my takeaway came in an empty box I'd be really upset.

Indeed: 

 

[The Steppenwulf]

 

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Again, how much of a difference does it make in practical terms if I come here every couple of weeks to post an update that "the game isn't ready" and posting every single day?  The game won't be out any sooner or any later either way.

If you were to state that it won't be ready until 2019, that makes a big diff in practical terms about how many people will cancel their order. Stating that the game is days rather than months away might yield a different response. Either way the present position is that you are holding customer's money for an indefinite period of time! Do you not feel as a company that there is some responsibility that comes with taking money from customers as prepayment? Especially that is, when you had initially provided an indication of the release window, which has now been exceeded? 
 

[peter thomas]

But he's just said if pre-order people are unhappy they can just get a refund from support, Steppenwulf. That covers all those points, surely? 

[Sequoia]

Well you know, he is born to be wild. 

[McMortison]

4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

 

It's up to you, of course.  Personally, I find that to be a rather small thing to get peeved about in the grand scheme of what we do.  Again, how much of a difference does it make in practical terms if I come here every couple of weeks to post an update that "the game isn't ready" and posting every single day?  The game won't be out any sooner or any later either way.

Steve

Hi Steve.

I don't expect a update every day. But a info every 4-6 weeks would be nice. Even if you couldn't share much, a new screenshot now and then would be enough.

What made me really mad (and is the main reason I cancelled) is that you must have known that you won't be able to deliver end of September but you didn't see the necessity to inform your customers. In my book that's disrespectful.

I don't need a release date, or even care if it will be 2018, 2019 or 2020.  

 

Edited October 16, 2018 by McMortison

[The Steppenwulf]

2 hours ago, peter thomas said:

But he's just said if pre-order people are unhappy they can just get a refund from support, Steppenwulf. That covers all those points, surely? 

Where does Steve state that customers can get a refund? Moreover where does it state in Bf's sales policy that customers are entitled to a refund?

Yes I think we've gone over this earlier in the thread and that is why I am arduously making the point that there are deficiencies in the way this whole matter has been handled. It's simply a crap way to do business. Here's how BF can put that right in future:

i) sort out the payment system so there is capability for 'delayed capture' ...or
ii)  amend the sales policy to reflect capacity for refund during the preorder period

An acknowledgement of this would cover all the points.

[Wicky]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Where does Steve state that customers can get a refund?

Pg 17 

Posted Thursday at 12:47 AM
Sorry, coming to this one late.

Our policy is to not take preorders until we think we're withing 6-8 weeks of being ready to ship.  Sometimes we hit this window, other times (like now) we do not.  Customers have three choices:

1.  Preorder and accept that we aren't exactly sure when the game will ship

2.  Don't preorder and instead wait for the game to be done first

3.  Preorder, get despondent that we're taking too long, contact the Help Desk, and ask for a refund

Is there another reasonable and rational option that we should consider adding to the mix? 

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

6 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

If you were to state that it won't be ready until 2019, that makes a big diff in practical terms about how many people will cancel their order. Stating that the game is days rather than months away might yield a different response.

Nah, it wouldn't.  Maybe for you, but not for someone else.  That's the point I've been making over and over again... if I post anything other "it's shipping now" I get crapped on.  In fact, I've gotten crapped on when I've said "it's shipping now" because some people wanted advanced notice that the game was definitely going to be released that day.

See, this is the fundamental flaw in your logic.  You think there is a path for me that makes everybody happy and results in nobody being upset.  Therefore you hold me to an impossible standard which I will never, ever, ever live up to.

That said, I had intended on making a fairly significant announcement around October 1st.  But other events conspired against me, I thought I could clear it up within a day or two, and that didn't happen.  In hindsight I should have posted the "not shipping yet, don't know when it will be".  Hindsight is a great thing.

6 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Either way the present position is that you are holding customer's money for an indefinite period of time! Do you not feel as a company that there is some responsibility that comes with taking money from customers as prepayment? Especially that is, when you had initially provided an indication of the release window, which has now been exceeded?

Sure I do.  I just don't hold ourselves to an unreasonable standard as you do.  Given our track record I think we've earned a few days, or even weeks, grace period to make an announcement without people freaking out.  But obviously some don't agree, which is fine.  Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

4 hours ago, McMortison said:

Hi Steve.

I don't expect a update every day. But a info every 4-6 weeks would be nice. Even if you couldn't share much, a new screenshot now and then would be enough.

What made me really mad (and is the main reason I cancelled) is that you must have known that you won't be able to deliver end of September but you didn't see the necessity to inform your customers. In my book that's disrespectful.

I don't need a release date, or even care if it will be 2018, 2019 or 2020. 

See above.  Yes, we knew we wouldn't make the end of September a few weeks before.  However, I had intended to make more than a "it's not ready yet" post.  Thanks for cutting me so much slack.

2 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Yes I think we've gone over this earlier in the thread and that is why I am arduously making the point that there are deficiencies in the way this whole matter has been handled. It's simply a crap way to do business. Here's how BF can put that right in future:

I think customers who disregard nearly 20 years of solid customer support for something so trivial in the grand scheme of things is a crap way to support a niche company that busts its balls to make games that nobody else cares to make.  But each to his own I suppose.

2 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

i) sort out the payment system so there is capability for 'delayed capture' ...or

Absolutely not possible from a technical standpoint.  Never going to happen, unfortunately.

2 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

ii)  amend the sales policy to reflect capacity for refund during the preorder period

An acknowledgement of this would cover all the points.

Now this I can fully get behind.  Easily done and I'll do it later on tonight in the official sales policy page.

Steve

[Ted]

6 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Customers are not rational by nature.  What we do, or don't do, has no influence on that at all.  If we satisfy a customer one way, then a customer will be dissatisfied in another way.  There's absolutely no way, at all, to make everybody happy...... 

Steve

Hey. I've been a happy customer for near on twenty years now.

I say keep on doing what you're doing for another twenty years. 

[Battlefront.com]

Well, there's at least one exception to every rule

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

A post that some might want to check out over in the CMSF2 section of the Forum:

And yes, this is what I THOUGHT I'd be announcing around Oct 1.  We were "this close" to releasing the demos every say since then.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

And a formal announcement of CMSF2's release timeframe:

 

Steve

[AlexUK]

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Well, there's at least one exception to every rule

Steve

Make that at least two. I play no other games, been playing since CMBO. Nothing else I have played comes close. I am confident that when you release something it will be high quality. I also appreciate very much the effort you put in to fixing the things that don’t work.

[The Steppenwulf]

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond to all the points. It is appreciated! 

[Battlefront.com]

4 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond to all the points. It is appreciated! 

Not a problem.  Thanks for the constructive suggestion to amend the Sales Policy.  Last night I modified the stock and pre ordered section with a blob of text saying that such orders can be cancelled prior to shipping.

Steve

[McMortison]

14 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Thanks for cutting me so much slack

Here u go .

Thanks for taking your time to answer me. I already regret cancelling my pre-order now.

Edited October 17, 2018 by McMortison

[mjkerner]

28 minutes ago, McMortison said:

I already regret cancelling my pre-order now.

Lol, I saw that coming a mile (and several days ago) away!

(Just yanking the chain of a fellow Switzer!)

[A Canadian Cat]

16 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

See, this is the fundamental flaw in your logic.  You think there is a path for me that makes everybody happy and results in nobody being upset.  Therefore you hold me to an impossible standard which I will never, ever, ever live up to.

LOL - good summary. Many of us tank you for taking on the thankless task.

 

23 hours ago, c3k said:

23 hours ago, domfluff said:

If my takeaway came in an empty box I'd be really upset.

Indeed: 

LOL that was awesome. I especially liked the ending

[Andreas3]

Much appreciated, thanks for the update!