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They meant september of next year!

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2 hours ago, Mord said:

Oh, and I wasn't a lumberjack LOL. I was a ground man on a tree crew. Same basic industry, different skill sets and machinery.

But I did skip and jump...

Mord.

yes but did you put on women's clothing, and hang around in bars

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1 hour ago, Vet 0369 said:

Thank you Mord! Obviously, those were I never thought to look. Found 'em.

Anytime.

 

1 hour ago, sburke said:

yes but did you put on women's clothing, and hang around in bars

Just heels, the thong cut off my circulation.

 

Mord.

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16 hours ago, Mord said:

Oh, and I wasn't a lumberjack LOL. I was a ground man on a tree crew. Same basic industry, different skill sets and machinery.

But I did skip and jump...

Mord.

What about the other items on the list and the outfit? :)

 

im-okay-2.png

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4 hours ago, sfhand said:

What about the other items on the list and the outfit? :)

No suspenders, that's a good way to get dragged through a chipper.

Just between you and me...number 7.  The old man can rock a sports bra.

 

Mord.

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Just now, Mord said:

No suspenders, that's a good way to get dragged through a chipper.

Just between you and me...number 7.  The old man can rock a sports bra.

 

Mord.

You mean a Bro?

 

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11 minutes ago, Mord said:

Just between you and me...number 7.  The old man can rock a sports bra.

 

Mord.

I'm not sure whether that's covered in their sales policy though. 

Edited by Lethaface

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6 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

Gotta love that OG business model, in the age of preordering ultimate editions.

That's pretty funny and true. But on the other side of the argument you get guys like Crusader Kings II players b****ing that every DLC should've been in the main game. Or you don't get the full experience if you don't have all the expansions. And my thought is, well, it took them five years to get here, so basically your argument is they should've spent five more years developing the game before they released it. In which case they'd get heat for taking eight years or so to make it. It's a no win situation because in the end a lot of gamers are just b****es. They'd cut their own heads off to spite their nose.

I love companies that spend years adding features and content to a good title instead of abandoning it six months after it comes out , just to make a watered down new and improved version as quickly as possible (that's a cash grab IMO). It keeps a good game fresh and gives it longevity. I couldn't of been happier than when BFC announced they'd keep all tiles at the same engine level. I hope that's the future of many wargames. I've seen a few that are doing it now.

 

Mord.

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13 minutes ago, sburke said:

You mean a Bro?

Sure. what's one vowel between friends? It's the fashion statement that's important.

 

12 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

I'm not sure whether that's covered in their sales policy though. 

Man boobs need love too!

 

Mord.

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14 hours ago, Mord said:

That's pretty funny and true. But on the other side of the argument you get guys like Crusader Kings II players b****ing that every DLC should've been in the main game.

This is a common problem.  We've certainly had it here.  "Why should I buy Upgrade 4 to get features that should have been in the original game in 2008?".  Yup, like those Model T owners should be outraged that they didn't get airbags, Blue Tooth, and everything else as a free upgrade..  Everything should be free, apparently.

That said, there are game companies out there that do exploit customers by producing a bare bones, unarguably flawed, or misrepresented product and then claiming they owe the customer nothing after its purchase.  It's been going on since software was invented.

Quote

I love companies that spend years adding features and content to a good title instead of abandoning it six months after it comes out , just to make a watered down new and improved version as quickly as possible (that's a cash grab IMO). It keeps a good game fresh and gives it longevity. I couldn't of been happier than when BFC announced they'd keep all tiles at the same engine level. I hope that's the future of many wargames. I've seen a few that are doing it now.

We believe that customers should not be left in the dust if it is practical to keep them up-to-date with advances in the game engine.  It was not practical for CM1 and did not start out practical for CM2.  But we put in the effort to change that and, very soon, even back date it to CMSF.  I can say that we have been very pleased with how the Upgrade concept has worked in reality and will keep it going as long as we make games.

The key to avoiding the "ripoff" strategies of other game companies is to make sure the pricing is fair.  If we should ever produce a game that is trimmed down, for whatever reason, it will be priced accordingly.  In my view nobody minds buying a hamburger bun if it is marketed as a bun and priced as a bun.  Market a bun as a burger or price it as a burger... that's where things go wrong.  We will never do that. It would make us fill icky :)

Steve

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1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

That said, there are game companies out there that do exploit customers by producing a bare bones, unarguably flawed, or misrepresented product and then claiming they own the customer nothing after its purchase.  It's been going on since software was invented.

Yep, I agree and I think a rational person can tell the difference.

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

The key to avoiding the "ripoff" strategies of other game companies is to make sure the pricing is fair.  If we should ever produce a game that is trimmed down, for whatever reason, it will be priced accordingly. 

Like I said, "rational person". There are guys that are gonna scream because that is their nature. EVERYTHING should be in the release even if it takes five years to create the content first. Just idiocy on a level I can't fathom.

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

I can say that we have been very pleased with how the Upgrade concept has worked in reality and will keep it going as long as we make games.

Music to my ears.

 

28 minutes ago, Majestic12 said:

Thanks Steve. Any word about release or the demo?

I've been holding off posting an official update because there's been an annoying detail and a few other things that needed to get nailed down first.  It's pretty much where I need it to be, so expect a post in a few days. -Steve

And this one, yesterday:

"That said, I've been wanting to make a post that *IS* meaningful and *WILL* do something other than say the same old thing.  But like so many other things, life is not that simple and I can't make the post yet.  If wishes were gold then we'd be retired by now ;)" -Steve

From here:

 

 

Mord.

Edited by Mord

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Yup, the most important thing to realize with ANY position that deals with the public in ANY way... there's a whole bunch of people who are not rational or reasonable or both.  Never let them direct decision making except to serve as a reminder about what not to do.  The best way to deal with them is to understand that they represent the extreme side of what is probably a legitimate topic.  As long as the margins are the only ones complaining, things are about as good as they can be.

True story... I worked for a games company long ago that had a hard deadline to ship a game (retail, Christmas ramp up) that could have determined if they survived or not.  The game was not ready.  So what did they do?  They shipped an empty box and claimed it was a manufacturing mistake.  Customers got their games about a month later, at which point an improved version of the game was available and they mailed one out to each customer that contacted them by phone or snail mail (kids, there once was a time where email, Facebook, Twitter, etc. did not exist!  Shocking, I know!).  They figured the hit to their reputation for a botched assembly run would be far less than a game that didn't work.  They were right, I'm sure.

Steve

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35 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yup, the most important thing to realize with ANY position that deals with the public in ANY way... there's a whole bunch of people who are not rational or reasonable or both.  Never let them direct decision making except to serve as a reminder about what not to do.  The best way to deal with them is to understand that they represent the extreme side of what is probably a legitimate topic.  As long as the margins are the only ones complaining, things are about as good as they can be.

Yep, same in the non gaming industry. Thankfully we only have a few unreasonable and very few irrational customers but they are there.

 

35 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

True story... I worked for a games company long ago that had a hard deadline to ship a game (retail, Christmas ramp up) that could have determined if they survived or not.  The game was not ready.  So what did they do?  They shipped an empty box and claimed it was a manufacturing mistake.  Customers got their games about a month later, at which point an improved version of the game was available and they mailed one out to each customer that contacted them by phone or snail mail (kids, there once was a time where email, Facebook, Twitter, etc. did not exist!  Shocking, I know!).  They figured the hit to their reputation for a botched assembly run would be far less than a game that didn't work.  They were right, I'm sure.

Yuck - that sounds uncomfortable. Clearly unethical but their assessment of the business reality sounds like it was correct. Still - no cool.

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16 hours ago, Mord said:

That's pretty funny and true. But on the other side of the argument you get guys like Crusader Kings II players b****ing that every DLC should've been in the main game. Or you don't get the full experience if you don't have all the expansions. And my thought is, well, it took them five years to get here, so basically your argument is they should've spent five more years developing the game before they released it. In which case they'd get heat for taking eight years or so to make it. It's a no win situation because in the end a lot of gamers are just b****es. They'd cut their own heads off to spite their nose.

Dude, CK II is a minor offender. I'm not a fan of excessive DLC, but they got nothing on the big boys (Ubisoft, EA, Activation-Blizzard...) Bethesda is becoming a bad boy, too... (Creationist Club, no mod support, less quality content per dollar)

Look at the new AC game? A game designed around microtransactions, with a 150 dollar Ultimate edition -- ON LAUNCH! Look at what EA did to the SW Battlefront franchise. Bioware is now making a cookie cutter open world multiplayer shooter -- like everyone else. They're legit selling F2P games, these days. It's gotten so bad that I think even the mobile market is blushing in comparison.

I don't know a single Paradox game that even touches microtransactions. Their games are usually released with above-average content -- for below than standard price for games. I like how Graviteam handles DLC. There's a lot of it but it's generally substantial and you know what you're getting. CM games are even more substantial -- I have yet to complete the content of an entire game. There's also RNG missions and user content up the wazoo (which I haven't gotten around to yet). Then, I get Destiny 2 and seasons pass (buying hypothetical glorified free dlc early), I beat the campaign, reach max level and beat endgame in like a week.

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

True story... I worked for a games company long ago that had a hard deadline to ship a game (retail, Christmas ramp up) that could have determined if they survived or not.  The game was not ready.  So what did they do?  They shipped an empty box and claimed it was a manufacturing mistake.  Customers got their games about a month later, at which point an improved version of the game was available and they mailed one out to each customer that contacted them by phone or snail mail (kids, there once was a time where email, Facebook, Twitter, etc. did not exist!  Shocking, I know!).  They figured the hit to their reputation for a botched assembly run would be far less than a game that didn't work.  They were right, I'm sure.

The game wasn't Big Rigs, was it? xD Yeah, that's sadly a story I've heard a few times. At least they shipped an improved version, I've bough one or two games that promised they'd change -- but never did. One of my favourite games, KoTOR 2, had to cut a lot of content for Christmas release. It took a decade for fans to reconstruct a significant chunk of cut content.

54 minutes ago, IanL said:

Yep, same in the non gaming industry. Thankfully we only have a few unreasonable and very few irrational customers but they are there.

I feel you, man. Plenty of customer companies that are internally conflicted about what they want from a design, or simply do not know what they want or why they want it. Most irrational customers are older folk that want things done a certain way, simply because that's what they're most familiar with. Which is something many of us are guilty about.

Edited by DerKommissar

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12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

This is a common problem.  We've certainly had it here.  "Why should I buy Upgrade 4 to get features that should have been in the original game in 2008?".  Yup, like those Model T owners should be outraged that they didn't get airbags, Blue Tooth, and everything else as a free upgrade..  Everything should be free, apparently.

That said, there are game companies out there that do exploit customers by producing a bare bones, unarguably flawed, or misrepresented product and then claiming they owe the customer nothing after its purchase.  It's been going on since software was invented.

We believe that customers should not be left in the dust if it is practical to keep them up-to-date with advances in the game engine.  It was not practical for CM1 and did not start out practical for CM2.  But we put in the effort to change that and, very soon, even back date it to CMSF.  I can say that we have been very pleased with how the Upgrade concept has worked in reality and will keep it going as long as we make games.

The key to avoiding the "ripoff" strategies of other game companies is to make sure the pricing is fair.  If we should ever produce a game that is trimmed down, for whatever reason, it will be priced accordingly.  In my view nobody minds buying a hamburger bun if it is marketed as a bun and priced as a bun.  Market a bun as a burger or price it as a burger... that's where things go wrong.  We will never do that. It would make us fill icky :)

Steve

If Ford sold me a car with a radio without a volume control I'd be pretty annoyed. You sold an upgrade to your game that added the ability to mute the music. It's hard to argue that basic audio controls shouldn't have been part of the base game.

 

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Yup, the most important thing to realize with ANY position that deals with the public in ANY way... there's a whole bunch of people who are not rational or reasonable or both.  Never let them direct decision making except to serve as a reminder about what not to do.  The best way to deal with them is to understand that they represent the extreme side of what is probably a legitimate topic.  As long as the margins are the only ones complaining, things are about as good as they can be.

True story... I worked for a games company long ago that had a hard deadline to ship a game (retail, Christmas ramp up) that could have determined if they survived or not.  The game was not ready.  So what did they do?  They shipped an empty box and claimed it was a manufacturing mistake.  Customers got their games about a month later, at which point an improved version of the game was available and they mailed one out to each customer that contacted them by phone or snail mail (kids, there once was a time where email, Facebook, Twitter, etc. did not exist!  Shocking, I know!).  They figured the hit to their reputation for a botched assembly run would be far less than a game that didn't work.  They were right, I'm sure.

Steve

You can't seriously be complaining that other people are unreasonable when your stated position is that you don't know if your game is ready to launch until 10 minutes prior and that acknowledging a missed release window when it becomes obvious it will be missed is too time consuming, yet spend 10x as many words complaining publicly that your customer base isn't entirely rational. 

1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

Dude, CK II is a minor offender. I'm not a fan of excessive DLC, but they got nothing on the big boys (Ubisoft, EA, Activation-Blizzard...) Bethesda is becoming a bad boy, too... (Creationist Club, no mod support, less quality content per dollar)

Look at the new AC game? A game designed around microtransactions, with a 150 dollar Ultimate edition -- ON LAUNCH! Look at what EA did to the SW Battlefront franchise. Bioware is now making a cookie cutter open world multiplayer shooter -- like everyone else. They're legit selling F2P games, these days. It's gotten so bad that I think even the mobile market is blushing in comparison.

I don't know a single Paradox game that even touches microtransactions. Their games are usually released with above-average content -- for below than standard price for games. I like how Graviteam handles DLC. There's a lot of it but it's generally substantial and you know what you're getting. CM games are even more substantial -- I have yet to complete the content of an entire game. There's also RNG missions and user content up the wazoo (which I haven't gotten around to yet). Then, I get Destiny 2 and seasons pass (buying hypothetical glorified free dlc early), I beat the campaign, reach max level and beat endgame in like a week.

The game wasn't Big Rigs, was it? xD Yeah, that's sadly a story I've heard a few times. At least they shipped an improved version, I've bough one or two games that promised they'd change -- but never did. One of my favourite games, KoTOR 2, had to cut a lot of content for Christmas release. It took a decade for fans to reconstruct a significant chunk of cut content.

I feel you, man. Plenty of customer companies that are internally conflicted about what they want from a design, or simply do not know what they want or why they want it. Most irrational customers are older folk that want things done a certain way, simply because that's what they're most familiar with. Which is something many of us are guilty about.

$150 for a new game with all the trimmings is fine. Games are expensive to make. It's the 21st century, money practically grows on trees now. Games across the board should go up in price.

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30 minutes ago, SgtHatred said:

$150 for a new game with all the trimmings is fine. Games are expensive to make. It's the 21st century, money practically grows on trees now. Games across the board should go up in price.

Well, that's the thing -- it's not with all the trimmings. It's also got a lot of content behind microtransactions (at launch). As a customer, "Games are expensive to make", is not really an excuse when their competitors offer a better deal. Go up in price, and you'll get even less sales (optimization problem). How much do they spend on marketing? How much do they spend on bonuses? That's additional overhead that does not add quality to their product.

I'll admit, I like GTA V's model -- and my friends do too. Maybe why it is so damn successful. You buy the game for standard price, you get a singleplayer campaign, and full multiplayer with regular FREE updates. Sure, they sell Shark Cards, which are microtransactions -- but Shark Cards are just in-game currency. You do not need it to access any of the content, as you can buy anything in the game with PvE money.

No pre-order bonuses, no dlcs, no paid mods, no paid currency -- you get the game, you have the game. If I can get quality content for cheaper -- I'm there, dude!

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20 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

One of my favourite games, KoTOR 2, had to cut a lot of content for Christmas release. It took a decade for fans to reconstruct a significant chunk of cut content.

Funny thing is, the game would have sold like hotcakes no matter when it was released. They took a meat cleaver to their game for a few more percentage points.

I, for one, no longer financially support such behavior.

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On 10/12/2018 at 1:12 AM, Mord said:

That's pretty funny and true. But on the other side of the argument you get guys like Crusader Kings II players b****ing that every DLC should've been in the main game. Or you don't get the full experience if you don't have all the expansions. And my thought is, well, it took them five years to get here, so basically your argument is they should've spent five more years developing the game before they released it. In which case they'd get heat for taking eight years or so to make it. It's a no win situation because in the end a lot of gamers are just b****es. They'd cut their own heads off to spite their nose.

Sorry, but releasing your game with half the portraits and flags missing of countries that are already there and then charging money to have them back is BS. Especially since portraits are randomly generated by the code that is there too and you pay for a simple unlock. At one point they had like 12 DLCs to just allow you not to stare at a black silhouette of a face.

And let's not forget about the glorious preorder content getting cut for people who dared not to buy the game before it's released.

Edited by kraze

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On 10/13/2018 at 7:45 AM, General Jack Ripper said:

Funny thing is, the game would have sold like hotcakes no matter when it was released. They took a meat cleaver to their game for a few more percentage points.

I, for one, no longer financially support such behavior.

It's true. Obsidian always got a raw deal from publishers (worked on an Aliens game that got cancelled), good thing they do crowdfunding now.

I aspire to not buying games that support that nonsense. My wallet is still sore from that Mass Effect Andromeda.

Phewww... what a stinker...

On 10/14/2018 at 2:56 AM, kraze said:

And let's not forget about the glorious preorder content getting cut for people who dared not to buy the game before it's released.

How about deliberately falsified trailers and promotional material? PREORDER NOW!

On 10/14/2018 at 10:42 AM, sburke said:

Damn I am glad my PC gaming is pretty limited to CM these days....

Damn, indeed. I can imagine how ridiculous a lot of commonly accepted modern practices must seem. Buy a Ubisoft game on Steam and get ANOTHER piece of DRM software for which you have to register, with its own annoying online store promotions. Don't like it? Too bad, the game won't launch without it.

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