They meant september of next year!

[ZackTactical34]

20 minutes ago, IanL said:

c) stick to your policy of not spending time posting a response to everyone that complains and instead focus on getting valuable work done

I would pick c) too because it has been repeatedly demonstrated that a) does not really stop the arguing that happens in b)

I somewhat disagree. While I do believe that PR should never respond to every little complaint (it would take a lifetime), I think a general update would do them well. And, while some would definitely be annoyed with the delay, I would think that most reasonable people would understand the process and accept it. BF's ultimate goal shouldn't be about ending these silly arguments. Rather, their focus should be on heightening the quality of their brand image and their communication with the consumer.

Edited October 5, 2018 by ZackTactical34

[DerKommissar]

4 hours ago, slippy said:

Whilst carrying out that work, you notice that there are disgruntled posts on the forum about finnish dates, lack of communication etc.

do you :-

a) take 5 minutes out of your work to post a reassuring explanation, keep your customers happy and onside, and get back to work?

or

b) completely ignore any posts and let  customers argue back and fore against or in support of BF?

Disgruntled posts about Finnish dates? I'd tell them to move to Sweden.

[Vet 0369]

Personally, I notice that the last communication from BF was on August 9 (that was two months ago for those who insist monthly updates are required for good customer relations). I am optimistic that the reason Steve hasn't responded is because the demo or CMSF2 or both, are close to release.

As far as preorders go, MMP states up front that you won't be charged until the product ships. That is their business model. BF obviously doesn't state that, so no one has cause to expect that they won't be charged. That is BF's business model. As I, and others have suggested before, if that upsets you, cancel your preorders and wait until the product ships to order it. That will cost you only $5.00 more per preorder (as someone stated earlier). I don't know what that converts to in Pounds or Euros or other currencies, but I expect it equates to a hamburger at a fast-food restaurant.

Ok, now let slip the trolls who just want to vent and disrupt threads with childish statements, but aren't willing to cancel their preorders to show BF how upset they are..

Edited October 5, 2018 by Vet 0369

[sfhand]

8 hours ago, Snake726 said:

That's your opinion, but unfortunately it's not correct.

Please do explain...

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

I somewhat disagree.

And contrary to what some people say that is totally fine.

2 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

While I do believe that PR should never respond to every little complaint (it would take a lifetime), I think a general update would do them well.

So true.

2 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

And, while some would definitely be annoyed with the delay, I would think that most reasonable people would understand the process and accept it. BF's ultimate goal shouldn't be about ending these silly arguments. Rather, their focus should be on heightening the quality of their brand image and their communication with the consumer.

And I actually don't disagree with what you said. I would love to see increased communications. Really I would. Here's the thing: more communication is not how Steve has operated these past 20 years. I don't see him changing that. So, providing exemplars of what people want and saying "please be more like ABC" is not likely to change anything.

No problem with people citing examples of what they want to see, mind you. Cool. I do have a problem - but will not longer be commenting on - people acting all entitled and pissy about thing A or B that they demand. BTW I am *not* saying you are doing that - you clearly are not. But you have to admit that has been happening in this thread.

[A Canadian Cat]

9 minutes ago, sfhand said:

8 hours ago, Snake726 said:

That's your opinion, but unfortunately it's not correct.

Please do explain...

Or not.

In fact please not

[sfhand]

5 hours ago, slippy said:

maybe i worded it wrong. what i was meaning to say was this.

BF are hard at work, i assume, trying to complete the game, in order that it may become available for them to sell to us for profit.

Whilst carrying out that work, you notice that there are disgruntled posts on the forum about finnish dates, lack of communication etc.

do you :-

a) take 5 minutes out of your work to post a reassuring explanation, keep your customers happy and onside, and get back to work?

or

b) completely ignore any posts and let  customers argue back and fore against or in support of BF?

 

both options could, i have no basis on that your correct, affect sales and your business PR. Option a) can surely only have a positive outcome, whilst that of b) is negative.

Is it worth 5 minutes of time to give your business a positive boost? I would say yes.

 

p.s i took 5 mins out of my day to post this

 

I understand your points and don't really take any issue with them. I would put forward the possibility that Steve isn't visiting the forum and therefore isn't aware of any complaints. I don't think it is unrealistic that Steve, whose product has missed a couple of projected shipping windows, is probably frustrated,head down, mired in a swamp, trying to get the game out the door. Under those circumstances I don't blame him for not explaining to people who preordered that the game will ship when it's ready and (thankfully, given the time patches take) not before. To keep beating the dead horse bears repeating, when one preorders it is spelled out that the game isn't done and will not ship until it's ready.

So far, at least two projected release windows have been missed (my recollection, I could be wrong about this). Why anyone would want another is beyond me... I mean really, what do you tell a guy with two black eyes? Nothing he hasn't heard twice before...

[sfhand]

Just now, IanL said:

Or not.

In fact please not

Spoilsport! Perhaps we should discuss a game...

[A Canadian Cat]

2 minutes ago, sfhand said:

Spoilsport! Perhaps we should discuss a game...

Now you are talking. I has been a while - I think I can add another PBEM to my list. PM me of you cannot remember how to contact me directly...

[sfhand]

3 hours ago, ZackTactical34 said:

I somewhat disagree. While I do believe that PR should never respond to every little complaint (it would take a lifetime), I think a general update would do them well. And, while some would definitely be annoyed with the delay, I would think that most reasonable people would understand the process and accept it. BF's ultimate goal shouldn't be about ending these silly arguments. Rather, their focus should be on heightening the quality of their brand image and their communication with the consumer.

Great post. My own position concerning not just this release, but every release since Combat Mission: Shock Force, is that I would love more information about the development of product and patches, whether it be roadmap posts or release updates. That doesn't mean I feel entitled to them however. This is the first BF developed CM title since CMSF I haven't preordered.

Going by your join date I am going to assume you didn't experience the CMSF release and all the complaints that went with it - what's going on in this thread doesn't even move the needle in comparison. I personally found the game as released to be far below what I expected. To the point of not playing it at all for quite a long time. With every patch I would give it another try. It took several patches for me to find it worthy of my time. Throughout, having fallen in love with CMBO, CMBB, and CMAK, I was willing to wait for them to get it right, eventually they essentially did (to the degree the limitations of  the engine would allow).

The fact that they are "porting" the CMSF to v4 and are giving a deal to those who already own CMSF illustrates to me their value of their customers far more than stopping into the forums during crunch time does or would. Long ago Steve, who is quite verbose and active on the forum when not in a deadline induced foxhole, promised CMSF customers would be rewarded for their endurance and loyalty (my words not his).

I have come to know and appreciate when it's done is the release date of BF products. I have come to expect a lack of communication from BF when it's foxhole time and I am okay with it because I think I understand why. My respect for BF and the Betas for their continued dedication to making the best possible game they can make has and continues to deepen over the years. I have had the pleasure of getting to know a few Betas and I am constantly amazed at the time they donate to this game and to interacting with and helping others on the forums. When I was asked by a Beta if I was interested in being a Beta I said no because I knew/know I could never measure up to the standard they've set.

Edited October 5, 2018 by sfhand
clarity

[ncc1701e]

On 10/4/2018 at 3:27 AM, DougPhresh said:

I'd pay $35 to have South Africa in CMSF2 and another 70 for France and Italy in CMBS

Well, I would like much more France in CMSF2 than in CMBS. Much more interesting for things happening in Africa.

[Harry Speakup]

I thought a natural for CMBS would be Poland, since it's their back yard.

The problem with other nations is the likely income from sales vs the development cost. How many $35 does it take to make your RSA module viable and what is the likelihood of selling that many at that price? It's probably less of a gamble to do the same amount of work on a Marines module and sell far more in the home market.  

[Vet 0369]

On October 5, 2018 at 12:54 PM, DerKommissar said:

Disgruntled posts about Finnish dates? I'd tell them to move to Sweden.

I'm not sure I'd be comfortable dating Finnish women. From what I've seen on "The Booze Traveler," most could drink me under the table.

[sburke]

5 hours ago, Harry Speakup said:

I thought a natural for CMBS would be Poland, since it's their back yard.

The problem with other nations is the likely income from sales vs the development cost. How many $35 does it take to make your RSA module viable and what is the likelihood of selling that many at that price? It's probably less of a gamble to do the same amount of work on a Marines module and sell far more in the home market.  

That is the one frustrating item.  While I am all in for a Marine module (hopefully including Russian VDV, Marines etc)  I would really love to see expansion of additional NATO units to allow it to become more of a sandbox, but yeah the financial return is always an item and the market driver unfortunately does focus around US units.  Same reason NW Europe is the bigger game seller for WW2.

[A Canadian Cat]

11 hours ago, sburke said:

That is the one frustrating item.  While I am all in for a Marine module (hopefully including Russian VDV, Marines etc)  I would really love to see expansion of additional NATO units to allow it to become more of a sandbox, 

Yep same here. I would do a module with Poland and others plus some NATO nations first too. But that's just two of us

[ncc1701e]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Yep same here. I would do a module with Poland and others plus some NATO nations first too. But that's just two of us

Three. France is back in NATO after all. 

[JoMac]

1 minute ago, ncc1701e said:

Three. France is back in NATO after all. 

Yeah, and it's about time :-)

[Vet 0369]

I've been holding off posting an official update because there's been an annoying detail and a few other things that needed to get nailed down first.  It's pretty much where I need it to be, so expect a post in a few days.  And no, it won't be to announce CMSF2 is now ready for downloading.

Great, because that's the intended outcome 

Steve

 

The above was posted four hours ago in the Demo video thread. Granted it's a couple of days short of two months, bout I thought it might cause some of the natives to cease gnawing. On each other. 

[sburke]

5 hours ago, Vet 0369 said:

The above was posted four hours ago in the Demo video thread. Granted it's a couple of days short of two months, bout I thought it might cause some of the natives to cease gnawing. On each other. 

An optimist I see.  

[Snake726]

On 10/5/2018 at 11:16 AM, IanL said:

Or not.

In fact please not

Sure thing - perhaps you'd find it upsetting to be proven wrong, but I don't really care - actually, no, I might enjoy it!

Here is Battlefront's "sales policy" which is their TOS; you'll notice there are no clauses pertaining to anything to do with pre-orders except for refunds.

The text on their front page would be considered marketing material, not a legal disclaimer.

Here is the FTC regulation pertaining to this, called "Prompt Delivery", a revision of the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, 16 C.F.R. § 435: 

By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

...

You must provide a delay option notice if you can’t ship within the originally promised time. The Rule lets you use a variety of ways to provide the notice, including e‑mail, fax, or phone. It’s a good idea to keep a record of what your notice states, when you provide it, and the customer’s response.

Hanging shipment dates for pre-orders, with a TOS that states that refunds are not applicable, are not strictly legal - it's by the grace of non-litigious fans that BFC may operate in this fashion.

In this situation, strictly speaking, BFC would be mandated to provide a reason for the delay on the purchased merchandise.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Snake726

[db_zero]

If SF2 misses the release date so what. I bought a game on Steam Victory at Sea Pacific. Game with tons of potential, but released too early. I'm not angry. I'll pay the $$$ and wait for them to fix it as it has tons of potential. I haven't play it much. Less than an hour. I'll wait for it to get fixed before diving in. I view it as crowdsource funding of a product I desire.

These things take time. In the meantime there are plenty of other things to keep me occupied.

Edited October 8, 2018 by db_zero

[Sequoia]

On 10/3/2018 at 6:27 PM, DougPhresh said:

I'd pay $35 to have South Africa in CMSF2 and another 70 for France and Italy in CMBS. The biggest issue I'd see is deciding what order to add things, I can see people clamoring for any of the top three rows guaranteed.

If you think about CMSF NATO having Canada, Netherlands and Germany, it doesn't seem so bad...

Yeah I'm late to the party in quoting this but South Africa in CMSF2? Do you mean CM:Fortress Italy?

[Vet 0369]

1 hour ago, Snake726 said:

Sure thing - perhaps you'd find it upsetting to be proven wrong, but I don't really care - actually, no, I might enjoy it!

Here is Battlefront's "sales policy" which is their TOS; you'll notice there are no clauses pertaining to anything to do with pre-orders except for refunds.

The text on their front page would be considered marketing material, not a legal disclaimer.

Here is the FTC regulation pertaining to this, called "Prompt Delivery", a revision of the Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule, 16 C.F.R. § 435: 

By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

...

You must provide a delay option notice if you can’t ship within the originally promised time. The Rule lets you use a variety of ways to provide the notice, including e‑mail, fax, or phone. It’s a good idea to keep a record of what your notice states, when you provide it, and the customer’s response.

Hanging shipment dates for pre-orders, with a TOS that states that refunds are not applicable, are not strictly legal - it's by the grace of non-litigious fans that BFC may operate in this fashion.

In this situation, strictly speaking, BFC would be mandated to provide a reason for the delay on the purchased merchandise.

Well now, that would be a very good way to get BF to update (but didn't they do that in the Demo Video thread)! Invoke your perceived legal right to sue, and tie them up in court. That way, it might never ship.

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

And again, talking about no good deed goes unpunished, the angst here about preorders could result in BF deciding to never offer a discounted preorder again.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Vet 0369

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Snake726 said:

Sure thing - perhaps you'd find it upsetting to be proven wrong, but I don't really care - actually, no, I might enjoy it!

LOL you are quoting challenged. I made not statements and only asked that you spare us your "proof" that @sfhand was wrong because - as you showed again - it would be a rather pointless rant.

[Snake726]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

LOL you are quoting challenged. I made not statements and only asked that you spare us your "proof" that @sfhand was wrong because - as you showed again - it would be a rather pointless rant.

You seem incapable of understanding that I didn't listen to you?

It's not my concern that you don't care about proof, and I'm sure that you've studied up on American mercantile law. If you were as studious as you are obnoxious, you'd be ready to give me a real run for my money.

Edited October 8, 2018 by Snake726