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They meant september of next year!

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4 minutes ago, Johnny Canuck said:

The wait is what it is and seems pretty consistent with their MultiMan Publishing counterparts. Not that they like any comparison, but again, it is what it is.

I've used MMP a number of times. I'd say that the biggest difference is that while MMP does discounted preorders, they don't provide any estimate of when the product will be shipped. BF has at least tried to do that, and look what it's gotten them!

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The biggest difference being that MMP don't actually charge until the product is ready to ship. Please research the facts before using something (inaccurately) to make a point about how BF operate! 

I think I made it quite clear in my previous posts that when a company take your money they are entering into a legal contract to deliver the product and an approximate timescale for delivery forms a part of that bargain. This is why MMP do not take pre-order cash until ready to ship; there is no legally binding undertaking at that stage and the customer is free to cancel at any time. This is the reason why.

Returning to your earlier post, this isn't about trolling Vet! I'm stating things to you as facts, I'm not inciting aggravated responses to my posts! 

I'm all in favour of BF not offering release windows, but when they do this they cannot also ask customers to effect transactions until a shipping window is indicated. The offers around SF2 is the difference against (all as far as I am aware) previous CM products on this occasion.

 

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Having bought a number of preorders from MMP, I'm well aware that they don't charge until the product ships. However, I didn't include that in an attempt to avoid reigniting the previous vitriol. Looks like it didn't matter. Enough said.

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I have realized that, for so many years, I have only bought from Battlefront two games: CMBB and CMSF (plus all its modules). What is wonderful and very rare now in game industry is that Battlefront is still releasing free demos to try their games. I have looked at CMBN several times. Installed the demo and was continuing to hoping for CMSF2 even if I was not yet knowing it was an existing secret project.

But, for so many years, did I support Battlefront with free demos? I am not sure. So, thanks to @JoMc67 PBEM proposal, I have now bought CMBN big bundle. I think this is the best support I can give to Battlefront. Will buy CMSF2 upgrade when its done. It is not in September. I do not care. I care about a well finish product. And I have the intuition we won't have to wait very long before release.

Just my humble opinion.

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Posted (edited)

I believe Steppenwulf is correct to mention the paid pre-order variable. Waiting after making a transaction is different in kind to waiting with no transaction having occurred. You've entered into a contract in the former - for instance, if Battlefront never produced the game you paid for, you'd have a problem that you obviously would not have if you had not paid. Which is probably why they did feel the need to state a release window, since they have taken pre-orders which were debited transactions.

Frankly I think the "and look where it's gotten them" is what in fact makes BF look bad, not the question. Because I can point to multiple developers of the same size making the same type of game for the same audience that do not have paid pre-orders, but do keep their audiences better informed: what it gets them is appreciative, friendly customers, who are happy to wait (again, because they haven't yet spent any money, and so the developer had no obligation - updates at that point are perceived as good will).

Edited by Snake726

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3 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

The biggest difference being that MMP don't actually charge until the product is ready to ship. Please research the facts before using something (inaccurately) to make a point about how BF operate! 

I think I made it quite clear in my previous posts that when a company take your money they are entering into a legal contract to deliver the product and an approximate timescale for delivery forms a part of that bargain. This is why MMP do not take pre-order cash until ready to ship; there is no legally binding undertaking at that stage and the customer is free to cancel at any time. This is the reason why.

Returning to your earlier post, this isn't about trolling Vet! I'm stating things to you as facts, I'm not inciting aggravated responses to my posts! 

I'm all in favour of BF not offering release windows, but when they do this they cannot also ask customers to effect transactions until a shipping window is indicated. The offers around SF2 is the difference against (all as far as I am aware) previous CM products on this occasion.

 

"Combat Mission Shock Force 2 is in the final stages of development, however it is not yet ready for release. At this point in time we are inviting people to preorder one of several CMSF2 options at $5 off normal prices. With the purchase you will receive a license key and download link that will be activated when the game is ready. You may also add a DVD and/or Game Engine Manual to your preorder at extra cost. Please note the manual in this case is the standard Game Engine 4 manual, not a CMSF2 specific manual. Therefore, if you already have a Game Engine 4 manual from another CM product you really don't need another one.

IMPORTANT NOTE!!!! As soon as CMSF2 is released we will add new purchase options for Upgrades and stand alone Modules. Owners of original Shock Force products should wait until these options are available in order to take advantage of significant savings and additional purchase flexibility."

The above is from the order page in the store. Anyone doing due diligence who preordered accepted a discounted price and knew the game wasn't ready to be released at the time of purchase. Furthermore, every "release date" posted in the forums has come with a disclaimer about its accuracy. BF has in no way violated the terms of the sales agreement.

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From battkefront.com posted on the front page on August 8 2018:

The obvious question out there is "when will CMSF2 ship?" We're aiming for no later than the end of September. However, we'll soon release a demo with 4 battles and a training mission. That should help keep you occupied for a while.

This made me pre-order more then a month ago (if I recall it right the first statement was end of August).

I pre-order'd the big bundle although I already own CMSF (because I believe BF is worth the money). Still I am getting pissed of because there is no word what so ever. And for the love of the almighty- it's the communications not the lack of a release date that makes me angry

 

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Totally agree. Its not the first time this issue has been raised. Its nothing to do with when the game/patches or whatever actually get released. Its just down to the total lack of communication between customer and business. If you want people to pay good money for something you are supplying, then good business sense suggests you should, at the very least, have some dialogue.

 

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So, I guess they could post something along the lines of "There has been some unforeseen problems with the game's development so we missed our estimated ship date.These problems also affect the demo. We are currently unsure when the game/demo will be ready". Would that really enlighten you more than your powers of observation?

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Posted (edited)

Yes you can guess all you want, if you like mate. But you won't find out. Which is kind of the point some are trying to make. It's not about enlightenment, its about common, decent, customer care. That's all. One post every month or similar would pay massive dividends in the long run, and do more for sales than the 5 minutes lost working on the game to post it ever would.

 

 

Edited by slippy

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Posted (edited)

There is no guesswork involved about when the game is shipping. It is clearly spelled out on the store page.

 

edit: So are you saying BF has lost you as a customer?

Edited by sfhand
ongoing conversation

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I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat argument.

Quote

There is no guesswork involved about when the game is shipping. It is clearly spelled out on the store page.

Maybe i am missing something obvious, if so excuse me, but i can see no mention of a release date on the store page

Quote

edit: So are you saying BF has lost you as a customer?

re-read my post a few times, and i still can't see where i said that either.

 

My gripe is simply down to what i believe is piss poor customer communication for a $120.00 (discounted mind!) full game. No other issues

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53 minutes ago, slippy said:

I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat argument.

Maybe i am missing something obvious, if so excuse me, but i can see no mention of a release date on the store page

re-read my post a few times, and i still can't see where i said that either.

 

My gripe is simply down to what i believe is piss poor customer communication for a $120.00 (discounted mind!) full game. No other issues

Hey, I'm with you about tit-for-tat arguments. The store page says it will ship when it is ready. That is the release date. That is always BF's release date (with one questionable exception in the view of many).

 My query about whether you will continue as a customer was asked because you wrote that BF could improve sales numbers by posting monthly status reports. It was the wrong question to ask though, I should have asked if you are going to start buying extra copies of games if BF starts releasing a monthly status report. Other than that I see no factual basis for your claim of improving sales.

It's all in good fun bro... enjoy your evening.

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4 hours ago, sfhand said:

The above is from the order page in the store. Anyone doing due diligence who preordered accepted a discounted price and knew the game wasn't ready to be released at the time of purchase. Furthermore, every "release date" posted in the forums has come with a disclaimer about its accuracy. BF has in no way violated the terms of the sales agreement.

That's because it isn't a sales agreement. You could say "disclaimer: you will not receive a product after payment", but such a thing would not be a sales agreement.

The fact is that you paid. The product is then supposed to be delivered by some date. Yes, indeed - that date can be whatever you desire: 10 years if you like.

But if you start to moan about people saying "I paid X months ago, when is it coming out", then perhaps you are misunderstanding the point of contention: once you take payment for a product, you have agreed to deliver it: and CERTAINLY customers will now inquire at a MUCH higher rate than if they had not paid in advance.

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4 hours ago, McMortison said:

From battkefront.com posted on the front page on August 8 2018:

The obvious question out there is "when will CMSF2 ship?" We're aiming for no later than the end of September. However, we'll soon release a demo with 4 battles and a training mission. That should help keep you occupied for a while.

This made me pre-order more then a month ago (if I recall it right the first statement was end of August).

I pre-order'd the big bundle although I already own CMSF (because I believe BF is worth the money). Still I am getting pissed of because there is no word what so ever. And for the love of the almighty- it's the communications not the lack of a release date that makes me angry

 

I did the same. But what are they going to do? Say "oh, a nasty bug popped up and we are trying to resolve it"? That is probably a good thing to assume is what happened. I expect it will be released whenever they fix the issues.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Snake726 said:

That's because it isn't a sales agreement. You could say "disclaimer: you will not receive a product after payment", but such a thing would not be a sales agreement.

The fact is that you paid. The product is then supposed to be delivered by some date. Yes, indeed - that date can be whatever you desire: 10 years if you like.

But if you start to moan about people saying "I paid X months ago, when is it coming out", then perhaps you are misunderstanding the point of contention: once you take payment for a product, you have agreed to deliver it: and CERTAINLY customers will now inquire at a MUCH higher rate than if they had not paid in advance.

I don't hear BF moaning about anything... The answer to when it's coming out is when it's ready. On the store page it clearly says the product is not finished and won't ship until  it is finished. If you preorder under those circumstances you aren't entitled to anything except the product when it's finished. If you don't like those clearly published terms don't preorder... 

Edited by sfhand
typo

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It’s worth pointing out that Battlefront is a small enough company that a major emergency for any one of the employees would be enough to wreck any posted delivery windows. Sometimes those emergencies are the kind that really consume you, and it may not be possible or appropriate to publicly talk about it because, a) it would reflect poorly on the business, and b) it’s just too personal to share with customers, at least while it’s happening in the moment.

I know some would say the customer is owed a notification about this sort of event, that it’s the burden of running a business. However considering Battlefront’s size this is a good reason why they might prefer to keep dates less-than-defined. If one person becomes suddenly unavailable or OBE, it’s not like there are other teams that can have their priorities switched to ensure a certain deadline is maintained.

I say: why freak out? If you are a preorder customer and you feel like you’ve been swindled, just cancel your order.If you have difficulty with that, have your credit card company reverse the charge on grounds of unrendered service or w/e. If it doesn’t bother you so much then continue to hang out and live your life while the gamesmiths finish forging their newest title. Nuff said.

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6 hours ago, sfhand said:

If you preorder under those circumstances you aren't entitled to anything except the product when it's finished. If you don't like those clearly published terms don't preorder... 

That's your opinion, but unfortunately it's not correct.

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4 hours ago, Homo_Ferricus said:

However considering Battlefront’s size this is a good reason why they might prefer to keep dates less-than-defined.

I've given multiple examples of teams run by between 2 and 5 people that do a great job at community updates and communication. If Battlefront is truly one person, then I apologize.

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14 hours ago, sfhand said:

 My query about whether you will continue as a customer was asked because you wrote that BF could improve sales numbers by posting monthly status reports. It was the wrong question to ask though, I should have asked if you are going to start buying extra copies of games if BF starts releasing a monthly status report. Other than that I see no factual basis for your claim of improving sales.

maybe i worded it wrong. what i was meaning to say was this.

BF are hard at work, i assume, trying to complete the game, in order that it may become available for them to sell to us for profit.

Whilst carrying out that work, you notice that there are disgruntled posts on the forum about finnish dates, lack of communication etc.

do you :-

a) take 5 minutes out of your work to post a reassuring explanation, keep your customers happy and onside, and get back to work?

or

b) completely ignore any posts and let  customers argue back and fore against or in support of BF?

 

both options could, i have no basis on that your correct, affect sales and your business PR. Option a) can surely only have a positive outcome, whilst that of b) is negative.

Is it worth 5 minutes of time to give your business a positive boost? I would say yes.

 

p.s i took 5 mins out of my day to post this

 

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19 minutes ago, slippy said:

maybe i worded it wrong. what i was meaning to say was this.

BF are hard at work, i assume, trying to complete the game, in order that it may become available for them to sell to us for profit.

Whilst carrying out that work, you notice that there are disgruntled posts on the forum about finnish dates, lack of communication etc.

do you :-

a) take 5 minutes out of your work to post a reassuring explanation, keep your customers happy and onside, and get back to work?

or

b) completely ignore any posts and let  customers argue back and fore against or in support of BF?

 

both options could, i have no basis on that your correct, affect sales and your business PR. Option a) can surely only have a positive outcome, whilst that of b) is negative.

Is it worth 5 minutes of time to give your business a positive boost? I would say yes.

 

p.s i took 5 mins out of my day to post this

 

That's a Good Post, Slippery-When-Wet...

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4 hours ago, Snake726 said:
10 hours ago, sfhand said:

If you preorder under those circumstances you aren't entitled to anything except the product when it's finished. If you don't like those clearly published terms don't preorder... 

That's your opinion, but unfortunately it's not correct.

It kinda seem like @sfhand has it right. I don't think his point is an opinion - it is demonstrable fact and I think he is correct.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Marwek77 aka Red Reporter said:

No, for sure they are half person only...

Correct there is only a brain in a jar... :)

Edited by IanL
added smillie

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A couple of thoughts - no judgment - just my thoughts. I don't want anyone taking my posts on this personally.

2 hours ago, slippy said:

BF are hard at work, i assume, trying to complete the game, in order that it may become available for them to sell to us for profit.

That would be correct.

 

2 hours ago, slippy said:

Whilst carrying out that work, you notice that there are disgruntled posts on the forum about finnish dates, lack of communication etc.

First you are assuming that the disgruntled posts have been noticed. I can assure you testers do not spend time updating Steve on what we are all talking about here. Also don't forget that the number of customers that are here reading and posting is only as small sub set of the total customer base.

 

2 hours ago, slippy said:

do you :-

a) take 5 minutes out of your work to post a reassuring explanation, keep your customers happy and onside, and get back to work?

or

b) completely ignore any posts and let  customers argue back and fore against or in support of BF?

both options could, i have no basis on that your correct, affect sales and your business PR. Option a) can surely only have a positive outcome, whilst that of b) is negative.

c) stick to your policy of not spending time posting a response to everyone that complains and instead focus on getting valuable work done

I would pick c) too because it has been repeatedly demonstrated that a) does not really stop the arguing that happens in b)

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