Urban Combat Training Article

[kevinkin]

This is a recent opinion piece from West Point:

https://mwi.usma.edu/getting-beyond-door-kicking-four-tasks-urban-warriors/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB 9.19.18&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief

Nothing will teach you how to play CM better. But it's a quick and interesting read.

Kevin

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by kevinkin

[DerKommissar]

MOUT is tough. Thanks for posting!

I'd be interested in more tactics for using IFVs, artillery and MBTs in MOUT. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by DerKommissar

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, kevinkin said:

This is a recent opinion piece from West Point:    

+1  Thanks for sharing this.  Interesting read and more links to more interesting stuff.  The Muscatatuck Urban Training Complex (MUTC) link was very impressive.  We had a MOUT city at Ft. Bragg that I trained at in the 1980s.  Seems like the training facilities are much more advanced now.  I copied and pasted just part of the facilities that MUTC offers.  Four downed aircraft and collapse buildings one of which can be flooded.  Wow!!!      

• 1.5 Miles of Tunnel Systems
• 4 Downed Aircraft (ex: B-727)
• 5 Rubble Buildings (14 searchable lanes):
  --Collapsed Apartment Building
  --Collapsed Parking Garage
  --Floodable, Collapsed Rail Trestle
• 5-Story Hospital
• 7-Story High-Angle Rescue Trainer
• 9 Miles of Roads with 3 Traffic Circles and Overpass
• B-757 Cabin Simulator
• Bank
• Bus Station
• Business Offices
• Camp Holland Isolated Housing Area
• Cave Complex
• Church/Mosque/Temple
• Circular Drop Zone
• Coal-Fired Steam Plant
• Concrete Batch Plant
• Convenience Store/Pizza Shop
• Cyber Range
• Dam
• Destroyed Substation
• Destroyed Trailer Park
• Farm
• Farms, Third-World

  

Edited September 19, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[db_zero]

This is one area I wished could be simulated better. Multi level buildings should create piles of rubble that block streets. Tunnels and sewers would add an extra dimension. Assaulting a building from the top down often is the best way to go, but I don't think we'll be seeing our pixel troops fast roping from helicopters soon.

One of my favorites was seeing infantry fortify buildings in the Command Conquer games-yeah not realistic, but gave the impression of come and get it...and having troops fast rope down helos was always fun.

Given the small team and resources working on this you can only do so much.

[DerKommissar]

29 minutes ago, db_zero said:

Assaulting a building from the top down often is the best way to go, but I don't think we'll be seeing our pixel troops fast roping from helicopters soon.

One of my favorites was seeing infantry fortify buildings in the Command Conquer games-yeah not realistic, but gave the impression of come and get it...and having troops fast rope down helos was always fun.

I'll be happy if we actually get to SEE helicopters.

Big C&C fan here. Shame what EA did to it. Rivals... *shudder*.

You can actually put a lot of heavy weapons in buildings, which is cool.

[sburke]

3 hours ago, db_zero said:

This is one area I wished could be simulated better. Multi level buildings should create piles of rubble that block streets. Tunnels and sewers would add an extra dimension. Assaulting a building from the top down often is the best way to go, but I don't think we'll be seeing our pixel troops fast roping from helicopters soon.

Hmm that gives me a thought - I need to go try something. Be right back.

Back! Yeah a designer can create a scenario where reinforcements appear on the roof so you can simulate taking down a building by rappelling in..  ….. Mogadishu anyone?

One caveat - if your team takes fire they are gonna run to the first floor, cleared or not  

Edited September 19, 2018 by sburke

[Snake726]

Given the success of my latest CMBS game, I think the most essential part of urban combat is having a Stryker 105mm weapons platform behind you, and if you take any fire, take the building down

[Aquilas-ESP]

I think that the best army for, Close Quarters Battle, are the british because they have  the bullpup L85A2.

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, db_zero said:

Assaulting a building from the top down often is the best way to go, but I don't think we'll be seeing our pixel troops fast roping from helicopters soon.

As sburke pointed out one can simulate that.  Features that enable simulation and/or eye candy are regularly confused.

We need to differentiate between features that allow us to simulate something - like airlanding troops vs purely eye candy cos "it would be cool to see helicopters".  

Eg: It would be a useful simulation feature to be able to order snipers or AT teams to wait in ambush, shoot, and then immediately run away to cover.  That would also be very cool - but way more so than mere eye candy.

[MikeyD]

During the Vietnam war the US saw one third of their helicopter fleet destroyed. Helicopter losses made up half the total US aircraft losses in Vietnam. More than five thousand. In January 2017 the US lost an Osprey to ground fire in Yemen. That aircraft cost seventy million dollars, the equivalent of either fourteen Vietnam era Hueys or eleven(ish) modern Blackhawks. Using transport helicopters along the front of a hot stand-up war is risky (and expensive) business.

[Erwin]

41 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

In January 2017 the US lost an Osprey to ground fire in Yemen.

Many Ospreys and many lives were lost in testing and training as well.  The thing was a widow-maker.  Unfortunately, no medals or awards for the bravery of those folks.  Glad it seems to be at least flying ok these days.

[Kinophile]

It's incredible that it made it through as a concept. So utterly different. I wonder has its nature and capabilities encouraged new tactics? 

[sburke]

Welll getting infantry mobile has always been an issue of vulnerability be it via horseback, train, truck, air drop or helo. Not a new problem, just a new technology with the same problem 

[Artkin]

On 9/19/2018 at 2:21 PM, Snake726 said:

Given the success of my latest CMBS game, I think the most essential part of urban combat is having a Stryker 105mm weapons platform behind you, and if you take any fire, take the building down

The Stryker formations are excellent at urban. I probably wouldnt take any other. 

[sburke]

6 hours ago, Artkin said:

The Stryker formations are excellent at urban. I probably wouldnt take any other. 

Stryker MOUT 

[LongLeftFlank]

Interesting piece, looks like some of it was cribbed from this "BD6 and SWAT tactics are rubbish / no they're not" vets debate I linked in a MOUT thread over at the SF1 forum.

On 5/31/2017 at 8:08 PM, LongLeftFlank said:

Some very good discussion on the divergence between MOUT theory and practice in these links:

1. Here's what the vets say.... 

http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/archive/index.php/t-2089.html

An overemphasis on training for close quarter combat (CQC), or close quarter battle (CQB), in recent years has resulted in its overuse in combat, often in situations where more appropriate options exist. Platoon by platoon, the Army is learning the hard way how hazardous it is to fight room to room against a well prepared and often suicidal opponent. We can no longer afford to learn the lesson individually.

The whole stack concept is for barricaded subjects in a controlled area and in which the bad guys are contained. It doesn't appear that we have that luxury very often in Iraq.... we must not become enamored with SWAT TTPs that are designed to handle a particular threat, and one which we certainly would not encounter in a high-intensity environment.

Our "secure a foothold" rehearsals had squads stacked up in neat lines, preparing to make entry from the street or alleyway. "What are you going to do when you have a machine gun aimed in on a principle direction of fire down the street?"

... infantry squads/platoons quickly learned to first identify enemy positions and then moved to isolate/overwatch while calling in tanks, air, D-9s, CAAT, LAR, Bradleys, etc. to reduce before Marines moved into clear. It's in the latter clearing process that CQB skills should be emphasized and employed.

... using on-line tactics makes the enemy's job easy and falls right into his preferred strategy: attrit U.S. forces at range and then fall back through pre-made tunnels, jumping from roof-to-roof or over gates, etc as U.S. forces close and then to continue this pattern until you run out of room, at which point you execute your pre-determined E&E plan and live to fight another day.... Ackerman's experiences demonstrate the validity of urban night infiltration tactics as his platoon successfully infiltrated roughly 300 meters behind enemy lines and proceeded to wreak havoc on the enemy at first light when the enemy attempted to expolit what they perceived to be our predictable on-line attack preference shortly after the sun comes up in the morning.  

2. For contrast, here's the FM theory, with lots of diagrams, including a paragraph on S2's favourite, Breaching.... 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/call/call_01-9_karagosian.htm

The best way to enter, ROE permitting, is to make our own hole through the wall. Next best is a window, doors being least preferred. If the friendly and enemy-held buildings are adjoining, "mouseholing" with demolitions is preferable. Otherwise, AT4s, LAWs or other munitions should be used from the safety of our own building, rather than going out into the open to emplace explosives by hand. An effective technique, and one used by Chechens in Grozny in 1994, is to task-organize "rocket teams" under an NCO. Using pair or volley technique, a breach can be rapidly made and provide the enemy the least time in advance as a warning. Hollow-charge weapons in general are not designed to breach walls and one may not be enough. High explosive warheads (such as those in the AT8, SMAW, and Carl Gustav) have better ability to breach masonry. Main gun rounds from tanks are very effective.

Our casualties in the assault itself will be proportional to the intensity of enemy fire, its accuracy, and how long our assault teams are exposed to enemy fire. Suppressive fire and smoke together minimize the intensity and accuracy of enemy fire. The breaching fundamentals SOSR (Suppress, Obscure, Secure, Reduce) will assist us here. Smoke grenades draw fire; at a minimum, we can expect the enemy to shoot blindly into the smoke cloud. Speed of movement and breaching minimize exposure times. Assault teams must move fast and stay dispersed. If possible, do not stack outside the entry point. Get inside as quickly as possible. 

 

 

[MikeyD]

Back playing the CM:Afghanistan title (with its greatly reduced infantry squads) I commented that it appeared the function of infantry in Russian units was to move forward over the charred bodies of their enemies after the direct support armor and artillery were finished with them. Because they weren't individually powerful enough to be used offensively. Compare that to a Marine squad that's two (or three) times as lethal as anyone else's.

I was going through the CMSF2 scenarios and was surprised by how high a proportion were MOUT, or at any rate not open country. This isn't exactly new news since CMSF1 scenarios are well known. The other titles abound in tree cover, farm crop fields, walls and close hedges. In CMBS open country your infantry is liable to find itself helplessly under fires from beyond weapons' range. So village/urban fighting feels less frustrating.

Edited September 24, 2018 by MikeyD

[JulianJ]

This is slightly OT but @kevinkin's link has an amazing lecture about the Ukraine war here.  I wonder if the slides are available?  https://mwi.usma.edu/video-dr-phillip-karber-ukraine-russian-way-war/  I found it fascinating - I didn't agree with some of the politics in the first few minutes, but then it goes into military matters.  Highly recommended - I think most people on this site, interested in modern war, will find it useful, if scarey!

[JulianJ]

BTW one takeaway from it is "10/10/10"   a Russian concept of 10  mins to call arty in, 10 mins of firing, ten mins to scoot out and move to a new location.

[kevinkin]

I will post this link here since the CMSF2 forum is getting a lot of traffic these  days. 

https://mwi.usma.edu/video-dr-phillip-karber-ukraine-russian-way-war/

From a West Point  presentation to cadets in April.

Impressive one hour talk on the Russia Ukraine war circa 2014. The speaker was in Ukraine 30 times and conducted  "staff rides".  Good idea to pause the video and read the slides. Beware: there  is a lot of detail. There is a portion that compares an Ukrainian '"thunder run"  to Jeb Stuart's audacious cavalry ride completely around the Union army during Seven Days.  Mentions one Ukrainian helo pilot that was shot down 3 times in one day with MANPADs and survived to tell about it.  

This may have been posted in a forum already. If so, I am simply behind schedule. 

Kevin

[George MC]

31 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

I will post this link here since the CMSF2 forum is getting a lot of traffic these  days. 

https://mwi.usma.edu/video-dr-phillip-karber-ukraine-russian-way-war/

From a West Point  presentation to cadets in April.

Impressive one hour talk on the Russia Ukraine war circa 2014. The speaker was in Ukraine 30 times and conducted  "staff rides".  Good idea to pause the video and read the slides. Beware: there  is a lot of detail. There is a portion that compares an Ukrainian '"thunder run"  to Jeb Stuart's audacious cavalry ride completely around the Union army during Seven Days.  Mentions one Ukrainian helo pilot that was shot down 3 times in one day with MANPADs and survived to tell about it.  

This may have been posted in a forum already. If so, I am simply behind schedule. 

Kevin

It's an excellent talk. You're right - there is a lot of detail in this talk. also seems like he was time pressured so some of the slides he quickly skims through, so yeah worth pausing them.

The EW stuff is particularly interesting and how the take-home point is best not forget your map and compass skills boyz!

Re the Jeb Stuart analogy - that section is really fascinating as it shows how mobile mechanised ops can be conducted on a modern battlefield. The chap who led it mentions it was like being an ice breaker as you moved forward so the ice closed back in behind you - meaning you have to keep going forward. This tied in with a slide talking about very low unit density per sq KM. No massed battalions here! I'd have to give it another run through but I think this section has the most interesting potential for scenario designers to consider (Shameful plug but Morning Coffee is based on this very principle of 'a raid' - in and out fast creating maximum destruction and exfil before the cavalry show up.

[kevinkin]

This appears to be some the text that the video I posted above is based on:

https://prodev2go.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/rus-ukr-lessons-draft.pdf

Fifty pages written in 2015. It's very good but lacks the graphical presentation (e.g. maps) that the video has. But I think it is an important piece of work regarding modern warfare.

I will post these  links over in the Black Sea forum too. 

Kevin

 

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, kevinkin said:

This appears to be some the text that the video I posted above is based on:   

Very interesting read.  Thanks for sharing.  +1

[sburke]

On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:27 AM, MOS:96B2P said:

+1  Thanks for sharing this.  Interesting read and more links to more interesting stuff.  The Muscatatuck Urban Training Complex (MUTC) link was very impressive.  We had a MOUT city at Ft. Bragg that I trained at in the 1980s.  Seems like the training facilities are much more advanced now.  I copied and pasted just part of the facilities that MUTC offers.  Four downed aircraft and collapse buildings one of which can be flooded.  Wow!!!      

• 1.5 Miles of Tunnel Systems
• 4 Downed Aircraft (ex: B-727)
• 5 Rubble Buildings (14 searchable lanes):
  --Collapsed Apartment Building
  --Collapsed Parking Garage
  --Floodable, Collapsed Rail Trestle
• 5-Story Hospital
• 7-Story High-Angle Rescue Trainer
• 9 Miles of Roads with 3 Traffic Circles and Overpass
• B-757 Cabin Simulator
• Bank
• Bus Station
• Business Offices
• Camp Holland Isolated Housing Area
• Cave Complex
• Church/Mosque/Temple
• Circular Drop Zone
• Coal-Fired Steam Plant
• Concrete Batch Plant
• Convenience Store/Pizza Shop
• Cyber Range
• Dam
• Destroyed Substation
• Destroyed Trailer Park
• Farm
• Farms, Third-World

  

My wish list for CM:Insurgency…...

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

My wish list for CM:Insurgency…...

Yes............ that would be very cool.