Jump to content

Idea: Troops on "hunt" should drop down if they take fire


Recommended Posts

Actually, in v3.0 Troops tend to go prone almost immediately when taking fire...However, in v4.0 they tend to fulfill their movement within the current Action-Spot/and New Spacing (which could take several seconds) before dropping prone.

 

Edited by JoMc67
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, for some reason I thought they also dropped Prone when incoming fire...Thou, what I'm probably seeing is that the Friendly will get a new enemy Contact (after several seconds of incoming fire) then finally drop prone (all the while having its suppression run-up).

If that is the case, then I also prefer the idea to have troops immediately drop prone from incoming fire (and not wait for an enemy contact or full suppression meter)...At least do so when the suppression meters goes up slightly (one-bar).

Edited by JoMc67
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't forget there are adjustable troop parameters. A fanatical Elite is liable to stand his ground and die for his country. A weakened poorly motivated Conscript is as difficult to keep moving forward as herding cats. Posters often say they prefer playing highly motivated crack or elite but that comes with a downside when self-preservation is involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

To me it seems that as long as the hunting troops don't directly spot any enemy units, they can keep hunting. If their suppression meter gets full, they drop down though. But that can take a lot of incoming fire.

That's interesting.  I thought the incoming fire made troops drop when on Hunt.  But maybe the incoming fire gives away the location of the enemy unit and this "spotting" of the enemy unit makes the Hunting unit drop..................   There is also the 360 Target Arc that can be placed on a Hunting unit (typically scouts) which may also affect the "drop".  Maybe the motivation also??  Then the different combinations of these and maybe other factors.   

So many things to test and so little time..................   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I just did a Quickie or three: (2x Squads: Reg, Motivation 0, Leadership 0) Open Small Map with Good Weather, Mid-Day.

Attacker Squad Hunts in Open vs Defender Squad in woods a couple hundred yards away. Attacker was receiving Small Arms for about a Spotting-Cycle (didn't drop to prone), but next Spotting-Cycle it spots enemy Icon, and finally goes prone (suppression meter starts to hit yellow).

 

 

Edited by JoMc67
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

That's interesting.  I thought the incoming fire made troops drop when on Hunt.  But maybe the incoming fire gives away the location of the enemy unit and this "spotting" of the enemy unit makes the Hunting unit drop.

Yeah, that's my assumption as well...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I thought the incoming fire made troops drop when on Hunt.

I seem to remember it used to work like that some years ago...

3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

But maybe the incoming fire gives away the location of the enemy unit and this "spotting" of the enemy unit makes the Hunting unit drop

Yes, that's what (sometimes) happens. But I think troops should notice getting shot at, no matter if they spot the shooter or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's an assumption here that the pixeltruppen actually realise they're being shot at and aren't wandering around asking each other what all the funny noises are.

Then if they do, there's a decision to be made about whether they're taking effective fire they need to react to, or whether its ineffective and they should just carry on.

If its an ambush, how long is it going to take them to get over the shock and react? It is a surprise, after all.

Just to throw extra variables into the mix :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Hapless said:

There's an assumption here that the pixeltruppen actually realise they're being shot at and aren't wandering around asking each other what all the funny noises are.

Then if they do, there's a decision to be made about whether they're taking effective fire they need to react to, or whether its ineffective and they should just carry on.

If its an ambush, how long is it going to take them to get over the shock and react? It is a surprise, after all.

Just to throw extra variables into the mix :P

It depends on what we imagine the "hunt" command to mean. I assume it means" Move forward carefully until enemy contact. On contact, take cover". So the guys already know the area is dangerous and they are ready to drop down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


According to the CMBN game manual - (Bold are my highlights)

On page 27 - ADVANCED COMMANDS
You will use a combination of commands to give the weapons team very specific orders to get to their positions. Select your mortar team. Open the Movement tab (hotkey F5), select Hunt, and place a waypoint up the hill towards the Base of Fire. The destination should be at the bend in the road; use the picture on the next page as a guide. With the Hunt movement order, they will move slowly and cautiously, with rifles at the ready. If they are attacked, they will immediately cease their movement and drop down to cover. This movement order is very useful when you are moving into unknown territory.

On page 33 - Scout (Cars) Out!
Use Hunt orders so that your scout cars will stop moving forward if fired upon.

On page 80
Move Commands - HUNT
Infantry - this command maximizes the unit’s awareness for possible enemy contact. Soldiers advance slowly, weapons ready. Upon seeing an enemy unit, or when fired upon (even if the enemy is not seen) the unit stops immediately.  This is a good command to use when enemy contact is imminent.  When soldiers using HUNT get too tired, they stop and pause for 90 seconds before continuing to HUNT.
Note: in combination with a Target Arc command, Hunt is restricted to only the area within the arc, and ignores enemy units outside the arc.
Vehicles - orders vehicles to advance slowly and observe the battlefield for enemy contacts. Upon spotting a threat, such as another enemy vehicle or tank, or when fired upon (even if the enemy is not seen), the vehicle stops immediately.
Restrictions - same as all other Movement commands.
Example - Hunt is very useful for cleaning out houses which are suspected to have enemy hiding inside, or as a “move to contact” order for tanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Badger73 said:

Upon seeing an enemy unit, or when fired upon (even if the enemy is not seen) the unit stops immediately. 

I just checked with the CMFB manual, and it says the same. It even states it clearly in the tutorial: "If any enemy is spotted or they are fired upon, the units will stop moving immediately..."

But that's not really what I see happening, so either I'm misunderstanding something, or the command doesn't work as intended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Badger73 said:

Note: in combination with a Target Arc command, Hunt is restricted to only the area within the arc, and ignores enemy units outside the arc.

This is the critical concept to bear in mind.

Also: On page 33 - Scout (Cars) Out!
Use Hunt orders so that your scout cars will stop moving forward if fired upon.

In WEGO this is usually fatal for vehicles.  It would (usually) be better for survival to have the vehicle reverse as fast as possible to cover.  Hope this goes on the master wish list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Erwin said:
15 hours ago, Badger73 said:

Note: in combination with a Target Arc command, Hunt is restricted to only the area within the arc, and ignores enemy units outside the arc.

This is the critical concept to bear in mind.

Doesn't apply in this case; the unit has no cover arc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The HUNT command might be kind of a victim of the limitations with the WEGO system. Having the AI run the show for an entire minute in these situations where we use the hunt command is tricky to get right i belive. Sometimes we might want the hunt command to aqctually halt any advance and hit the dirt as soon as the unit spots an enemy or is somewhat close to incomming fire. Other times we might want the hunt command to act more as a 'carefull advance' and not having the troops stop and hit the ground as soon as a few builits start flying in the vicinity but still using the low/ready stance .

Having a to sencetive hunt command might very well lead to something that sburk mentioned here...

On ‎9‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 2:43 AM, sburke said:

question is determining if they are being shot at or they just notice fire but it is directed at someone else.  Hunting up on an enemy who is targeting someone else might become problematic.

I have had this issiue several times, atleast pre V4, where my hunting troops halt over and over because of nearby fire. Sort of screwing up the timings for my overall avance somewhat.

Many times i have decided NOT to use hunt for this very reason and instead used another movement option to make sure that my intended move did not take something like 5 minutes (halted several times) to complete.

Maybe it would be a good thing if we could get two seperate orders for these situations. Keep the old HUNT and have it work pretty much as is (or even more sencetive). Having the troops stop and hugg the ground as soon as they are seeing enemy troops or are noticing incomming fire in the close proximity.

A second version of this order could perhaps be something like LOW AND SLOW...The troops will move forward in a crouched mode with weapons at the ready and not stop until they take some serious fire/ casualties (like other movement options). This option should keep the stealthyness of the original HUNT command. 

Should the LOW AND OWING troops stop to return fire periodically 😎 I don't know

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Quote

A second version of this order could perhaps be something like LOW AND SLOW...The troops will move forward in a crouched mode with weapons at the ready and not stop until they take some serious fire/ casualties (like other movement options). 

Did soldiers ever move like that in WW2? I'd assume they'd either stay put, crawl through concealment, or run as fast as they could in short bounds. Or "hunt". But a kind of hunt where they'd keep walking even though they started to take fire?

 

6 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

This option should keep the stealthyness of the original HUNT command.

I'm not sure HUNT actually makes troops more stealthy. When I play against people, I notice I often spot their troops hunting through woods at quite long distances. But I haven't tested it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

The HUNT command might be kind of a victim of the limitations with the WEGO system. Having the AI run the show for an entire minute in these situations where we use the hunt command is tricky to get right i believe.

Moot point. The game is designed to run in real time. HUNT should take effect immediately as advertised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

A second version of this order could perhaps be something like LOW AND SLOW...The troops will move forward in a crouched mode with weapons at the ready and not stop until they take some serious fire/ casualties (like other movement options). This option should keep the stealthyness of the original HUNT command. 

 

Isn't this a lot like what Slow currently does, except for the animations? Slow is tiring of course, but I imagine this would also be.

14 hours ago, Erwin said:

In WEGO this is usually fatal for vehicles.  It would (usually) be better for survival to have the vehicle reverse as fast as possible to cover.  Hope this goes on the master wish list.

Isn't this already there for when vehicles, regardless of movement commands, encounter much more heavily armored vehicles that they can't hurt? It seems like it would require a lot of coding to make it apply to ATGs or infantry fire as well, since "whether you can hurry them" is much more complex than just an armor penetration calculation. A T-70 *can* hurt an 88 that it sees 1500m away . . . but you'd probably still want it to back up when it notices the gun. It seems like we'd need two Hunt modes--one for this, an another for when you want Hunt to mean that a King Tiger should move forward until it spots the enemy, then open fire.

I would love it if (as others suggested at some point) Hunt could be a toggle rather than a command, so it would govern how soldiers in any movement command would respond to enemy contact--in Move, for example, it would make them drop down instead of switching to Quick if they take fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

I would love it if (as others suggested at some point) Hunt could be a toggle rather than a command, so it would govern how soldiers in any movement command would respond to enemy contact--in Move, for example, it would make them drop down instead of switching to Quick if they take fire.

I had an idea for some time that it could be cool to have "stances" in the game. So all troops would be either "bold" or "cautious". Depending on stance, they'd react differently to spotting enemies. A scout car on hunt with cautious stance would reverse upon spotting an enemy (or being fire upon), but with bold stance it would just stop and return fire.

Haven't thought the idea through yet, so I'm sure there will be some issues with it. But I think the basic idea is interesting at least.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

I'm not sure HUNT actually makes troops more stealthy. When I play against people, I notice I often spot their troops hunting through woods at quite long distances. But I haven't tested it out.

I also tend to agree as I have had that happen to me, and to the enemy, at great distances all the time...It's as if 'Hunt' is no different then 'Move' when getting spotted.

Edited by JoMc67
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

I also tend to agree as I have had that happen to me, and to the enemy, at great distances all the time...It's as if 'Hunt' is no different then 'Move' when getting spotted.

I think all move orders are the same actually, when it comes to getting spotted or not. Even if there's a concealment bonus for walking, it also means troops stay moving for more spotting cycles to reach their destination.

The only order that makes troops more stealthy seems to be SLOW, and I think that's mainly because it keeps troops down where grass, crops, etc breaks or degrades LOS.

But I don't know for sure. It's just my impression.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have any tests been done on how units react on MOVE?   IN CM1 it was very bad/risky to use MOVE unless one was 100% sure there were no enemy in the vicinity. 

However, in CM2, I get the sense that MOVE is more akin to "HUNT LITE" and am starting to use it more and more when it is merely possible (as opposed to highly likely) there is enemy in the vicinity.  When shot at, units on MOVE are not as vulnerable as they were in CM1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...