IED Mechanics?

[Hapless]

I've been wondering how something command activated like an IED fits into playing WeGo and thought: "Why not just ask?" I'm guessing that most if not all of the mechanics will be the same as in CMSF1, but I can't remember them and I'm sure other people would like to know... so:

Does the TacAI trigger the IED when it thinks the time is right or is it somehow controllable by the player?

Are there ways (eg. target commands or target arcs) to use IEDs to target specific units/vehicles or differentiate between infantry and vehicle targets?

Is it possible to use IEDs to booby trap buildings?

How much do the different types of IED differ? For example: are cell and radio IEDs cheaper than wire detonated IEDs but less reliable because of NATO ECM?

If something like ECM is interfering with an IED detonation command, will there be any feedback for the player? (Because while it might realistic that players get very confused when they press a button and nothing blows up, they probably need some way of knowing that its not a bug).

Are VBIEDs driver activated, or activated remotely? If activated remotely, would it be possible to detonate a VBIED even if the driver is dead? And on the flipside, can VBIEDs be disarmed by engineers?

Does each IED have a separate triggerman? Can one IED be detonated by multiple triggermen and can multiple triggermen detonate the same IED?

Edited August 9, 2018 by Hapless
Incompetence!

[Vet 0369]

I don't remember if IEDs are in CMSF1. I haven't encountered any during play of Stryker or Marine campaign missions, however, I haven't played any Uncons. I expect that the timing would be much the same as the "Blast" command when breaching. In fact, I expect it will be based in some way on the "Blast" command.

[sburke]

whew, yeah this is worthy of a thread in itself.  I'd actually have to mess around to get all those details.  I know generally how they work, but there are a lot of specifics there regarding triggerman, costs etc that would need some time and effort.  definitely worth documenting though.

Regarding ECM no there is no feedback and there are few vehicles with that capability.  (however if you select it you do get information as to whether it is malfunctioning - whether that is due to ECM or simple failure I don't think you know - but again there are few vehicles that even have ECM in game which I am sure will be a topic thread of it's own) No IED can be "disarmed" however you can destroy a VBIED and triggermen.  The triggerman in a VBIED is not the driver so yes, but typically there isn't much need of distinction.  If the driver is getting shot, more than likely so is the triggerman and they likely aren't close enough to target.  When it works thought the effect is about what one would expect.

Generally the triggerman should go into the vehicle, reason for this is fairly obvious, you want the triggerman to see what the driver sees.  It doesn't help if your triggerman can't see that the vehicle is passing a target if it doesn't have LOS.  Also I expect reliability is going to be an issue, the triggerman has a distance factor from which they can detonate.  I have never tried detonating a VBIED remotely so am not sure it will even work, but if so I expect the reliability factor would make it not very desirable..

Edited August 9, 2018 by sburke

[sburke]

1 minute ago, Vet 0369 said:

I don't remember if IEDs are in CMSF1. I haven't encountered any during play of Stryker or Marine campaign missions, however, I haven't played any Uncons. I expect that the timing would be much the same as the "Blast" command when breaching. In fact, I expect it will be based in some way on the "Blast" command.

They are.  multiple kinds etc.  They are a potential tactical nightmare if used well, but are not 100% reliable.  It is not based on blast command, in fact there are multiple ways to activate and use.  You can set it to go off on the approach of any enemy or target a specific enemy.  VBIEDs will generally just go off when in proximity to any enemy if there are still in a good state and not freakin out over a hail of lead.

[Vet 0369]

Many thanks. I'll have to do some Uncon, if for no other reason than to learn their capabilities. But that would mean forgoing my Marines.

Maybe I'll just use them against the Army!

Edited August 9, 2018 by Vet 0369

[Lethaface]

From the manual page 93:

IEDs: Improvised Explosive Devices (i.e. bombs). Three different types, in various sizes, are simulated in the game. The size determines the strength of the explosion and therefore ability to cause damage and casualties. The different types determine reliability as well as the distance at which the triggerman can be positioned.

* Wire – shortest distance (about 100m), 10% failure chance
* Radio – medium distance (about 300m), requires line of sight, 20% failure rate
* Cell phone – long distance (about 600m), 10% failure chance

IEDs typically consist of the bomb itself and the triggerman. The bomb is placed during the setup phase like any other unit. Once placed, it cannot be moved again. The triggerman, however, can be relocated.

VBIEDs: vehicle based IEDs, or in other words, a civilian vehicle stuffed with explosive material. VBIEDs are driven by a suicide bomber with the intention to come close to an enemy unit and detonate the device. A VBIED team typically consists of one driver and one spy. The driver’s function is to drive the vehicle and trigger the explosion, while the spy is used to designate the desired target from a safe position outside of the vehicle.

Using IEDs and VBIEDs

In game terms there is very little difference between operating IEDs (i.e. roadside bombs) and VBIEDs (i.e. vehicle bombs). As you read this section consider everything you read about an IED applies to a VBIED unless specifically noted to the contrary.

In order for an IED to detonate it must first be activated, otherwise it remains inert. To activate an IED, select it and choose the Target command from the Combat panel, then click on the map to arm it. If you want the IED to target the first unit that comes near it, click anywhere on the map. If you instead want to target a specific enemy unit, click on that unit and the IED will ignore other possible targets. You can re-designate the target at any time by repeating these steps.

Activation is not just a matter of specifying a target, however. For activation to occur the triggerman, at the time the Target command is used, must be in good shape (e.g. not panicked), have an undamaged trigger device in its inventory, be within the maximum range (and/or LOS if required) of the IED, and pass a reliability check. The reliability check determines if the IED itself, or the ability to detonate it, has failed. IEDs that malfunction can’t be made to detonate no matter what. If there is a change to one of these factors, such as the triggerman being eliminated, then the IED remains activated but will not detonate until all requirements are fulfilled again.

VBIEDs differ from IEDs mostly in terms of mobility. VBIEDs are driven by a suicide bomber with the intention to come close to an enemy unit and detonate the device. A VBIED team typically consists of one driver and one spy. The driver’s function is to drive the vehicle, select a target and trigger the explosion, while the spy is used to help the driver find possible targets from a safe position outside of the vehicle.

The VBIED automatically detonates once in proximity to the first enemy unit that comes near it. No activation is needed like for IEDs.

You can also select a specific target for the VBIED. In order to do this, select the VBIED, and choose the Target command. Next, click on the desired enemy unit to target. However, keep in mind that vehicles are generally viewed with suspicion so going after the first vehicle is generally the only practical thing to do. As long as the Target command remains active, the car will only detonate when the selected target unit comes into proximity. Other enemy units will cause no detonation. Targetting a specific unit allows you to let part of a column pass by and detonate the VBIED later. But keep in mind that this is increasing the chances of the enemy to spot you, as well.

 

[MikeyD]

The 3-D graphic representation shows:

• Small IED - one artillery shell wired-up into a bomb
• Medium IED - three artillery shells
• Large IED -  five artillery shells
• Huge IED - an aircraft bomb

The vehicle suicide VBIED has an aircraft bomb in the back seat.

Method of detonation includes cell phone, radio link and wire, all requiring a trigger man. The Achilles heal is the trigger man. If he's suppressed. distracted or killed then no IED BOOM. The detonation methods each have their own max range, susceptibility to jamming (which is in the game) and inherent failure rate.

 Syrian army fortifications includes an 'IED mine' which is a buried device triggered by a pressure plate. No need for a trigger man. No indication what the device is made up of but the boom is BIG.

I don't think IED has changed much in the game since  CMSF1. I believe the trigger man was made a bit less likely to start shooting and give himself away. Plus the game's now got an electronic warfare setting that disrupts communications including cell/radio activation devices

 

[The_MonkeyKing]

Can VBIEDs move?

[Lethaface]

2 minutes ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Can VBIEDs move?

Yes, just like normal vehicles iirc. Give them a target and than hit the gas with a fast move. Ive posted info from manual above.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Lethaface

[MikeyD]

The civilian cars (including VBIEDS) are the fastest vehicles in the game. 

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Hapless said:

Is it possible to use IEDs to booby trap buildings?

How much do the different types of IED differ? For example: are cell and radio IEDs cheaper than wire detonated IEDs but less reliable because of NATO ECM?

If something like ECM is interfering with an IED detonation command, will there be any feedback for the player? (Because while it might realistic that players get very confused when they press a button and nothing blows up, they probably need some way of knowing that its not a bug).

Are VBIEDs driver activated, or activated remotely? If activated remotely, would it be possible to detonate a VBIED even if the driver is dead? And on the flipside, can VBIEDs be disarmed by engineers?

Does each IED have a separate triggerman? Can one IED be detonated by multiple triggermen and can multiple triggermen detonate the same IED?

The following is true for CMSF1 and IMO will probably be true for CMSF2.   There are four sizes of IED: small, medium, large & huge. There are three types of IED: Wire 100m, 10% failure / Radio 300m, requires LOS, 20% failure / Cell phone 600m, 10% failure. IED teams consist of the bomb and the triggerman. To work the IED must be activated and the triggerman in range (if radio LOS also) and not panicked with an undamaged trigger device.  If this criteria is met when the triggerman observes OpFor enter the Action Spot (adjacent AS for huge or large device) the device will detonate. (The triggerman will not detonate the IED unless he can spot OpFor next to it.)  IEDs Cannot be set up inside buildings by the player during setup however there is a trick that will allow an IED to be placed inside  buildings on the first floor by the scenario creator.  I think @Sgt.Squarehead discovered the trick. 

 

1 hour ago, Hapless said:

If something like ECM is interfering with an IED detonation command, will there be any feedback for the player? 

Does each IED have a separate triggerman? Can one IED be detonated by multiple triggermen and can multiple triggermen detonate the same IED?

You can see the trigger-man is able to detonate an IED because the bomb's Target order will be available. If the trigger-man cannot detonate the bomb the Target command won't be available.  If the bomb is a dud then instead of showing Medium Radio IED (Activated) it will show Medium Radio IED (Malfunction).

Each IED comes with one triggerman however I've read on the forum where an IED  was detonated by a different triggerman (not the original that came with the IED).  

[MOS:96B2P]

35 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

I believe the trigger man was made a bit less likely to start shooting and give himself away. Plus the game's now got an electronic warfare setting that disrupts communications including cell/radio activation devices

 

Interesting information.  Thanks for sharing. 

So it sounds like the wire IED would have a better chance of working, compared to cell or radio, when Blue ECM was high................ cool, cool game. 

Also CMSF has ‘Civilian Density’ setting in the data menu.  The greater the civilian density the harder UNCONs are to spot.    

Edited August 9, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Sgt.Squarehead]

To get IEDs into buildings requires two AI plans and the commitment of one AI slot to the units in question.

Add the IED(s) that will become the booby trap (Huge is best IMHO) and the triggerman to an AI group. 

Create two AI plans each with a setup order area inside any building, ensure the setup tile(s) are fully covered by the building (you may be able to use the same building(s) in both AI plans, I've never tried it).  The triggerman can be placed on any level of the building per a typical AI infantry setup, the bomb(s) always appears at ground level (consider LOS issues here).....IMHO a single tile setup area is best.

Pop into preview mode and place the triggerman and bomb(s) somewhere other than either deployment area.

Run the scenario in author mode, IIRC when you first enter the map the triggerman & IED will be where you left them, but when you actually start the scenario (Big Red Button) they should snap to one of the two deployment areas according to the AI plan selected.

With wire IEDs (at least) you can use multiple IEDs from several different triggermen in this group (I've not tested the other IED types).....There's a building in Mosul wired with three Huge IEDs, you'll know if you find it! 

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

The greater the civilian density the harder UNCONs are to spot.

This seems to apply mostly to Uncon special units (such as spies) and it mostly seems to determine the 'Rout Distance'.....Anything with a gun (including IED triggermen) seem to be spotted pretty much as normal, as they should IMHO.  I should add here that I've not done any conclusive testing on this, but as you know I've messed around with a lot of urban scenarios featuring these units and that's the impression that I get.

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

You can see the trigger-man is able to detonate an IED because the bomb's Target order will be available. If the trigger-man cannot detonate the bomb the Target command won't be available.

Not sure about this.....Never noticed it, if it is the case. 

3 hours ago, The_MonkeyKing said:

Can VBIEDs move?

Like a bat outta hell:

Those of you who are new to CM:SF and preorder the full CM:SF2 pack are in for a massive treat when it comes out.....It is one hell of a game! 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Hapless]

Thanks for answering guys! Looking forward to testing them out against a human player...

[c3k]

I ---hate--- IEDs.

They are fiendish.

[Vet 0369]

2 hours ago, c3k said:

I ---hate--- IEDs.

They are fiendish.

But they allow so many to gloriously die for their causes!

[MOS:96B2P]

VBIED detonation.  CMSF1 scenario Hornets Nest. 

[Kinophile]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

VBIED detonation.  CMSF1 scenario Hornets Nest. 

Good god

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The real thing:

Edited August 10, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[GAZ NZ]

On the topic

I saw this and found it very interesting

New Russian anti IED mine vehicle

Listva

Operational with Russian nuclear convoys

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

It'd be nice if the CMSF2 VBIED skin could match the regular Uncon taxi skin. In (unmodded) SF1, the moment you see a blue sedan, you know instantly what it is.

[MikeyD]

Here's the factory paint job on a Lada. Varying shades of blood red. This is the CMSF2 VBIED color.

 

[Sequoia]

I don't want to hijack the thread too much. I am content with the explanation regarding why the game will likely never have IED disarmament by Engineers. Still I have a pet peeve regarding one of the missions in the Canadian Campaign, where there is only one place where vehicles can cross a gully. We are warned about IEDs in the scenario briefing so I had no doubt there were IEDs at the chokepoint. I peppered the area with 40mm with no luck. I then put area fire on every building possible and sent a recon vehicle across. Big boom.

I am at this time not requesting any changes to the engine. However, when Battlefront starts working on Upgrade 5, can I talk any of you beta testers to look into being able to detonate an IED by peppering the area with sufficient explosives. I am assuming this would work in real life but please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Erwin]

The trick is not to pepper the location of a suspected IED, but to kill the triggerman - ie: deduce where he may be hiding and blast those locations.

[Sequoia]

I agree that's true, but are you familiar with the mission I am referring to? There's a large neighborhood of multi-storied buildings with line of sight to the target spot. I had every available unit open up with area fire to different targets hoping that would suppress the triggerman while I sent my scout vehicle across. (Spoiler There was not one but 2 IEDs at the location. One went off, the other never did even with the 2nd vehicle).

 But again I ask, in real life wouldn't peppering the suspected IED location with sufficient explosives cause them to detonate? Hiding enemy forces were not targeting my dismounted infantry. In real life I would in that case  have waited for bomb experts to check out the choke point rather than send a scout vehicle across in a possible suicide mission, but we don't have that option.