Asst. leader doesn't take over after platoon leader dies?

[Bulletpoint]

Currently playing the Peiper campaign, and in one scenario I have some SS Pz. Aufklärung platoons. One of the platoon leaders just kicked the bucket, and I expected the Assistant leader in the HQ Support Team to take over. But it doesn't seem to happen. Is it supposed to? The HQ Support Team has three guys and the leader is marked with "Asst"

[A Canadian Cat]

I know that happens for Companies - the CO is replaced by the 2I1, XO and the icons change. I am not sure if the icons change for platoon level switching. Check your C2. If the HQ Support team is near the squads do they show up as in command? Don't for get that squads can be in command from a Company HQ as well so make sure the Company CO is not around when you test it.

[Bulletpoint]

Well they don't show up as in command, and the command lines indicate no C2.

I know some German platoons don't have a second in command, but these ones have. Ostensibly. It's the KG Knittel mission.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

Sounds like its not making the switch  - to bad. I am not sure if that is intended or a bug. Hopefully someone more knowledge able will chime in.

[DerKommissar]

I'm currently playing that campaign, too. I am on the third mission. Which one are you?

The second in command for platoon HQ? Is it the guy with the STG-44? I can see if I can replicate the issue.

[Bulletpoint]

17 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

I'm currently playing that campaign, too. I am on the third mission. Which one are you?

I'm in the "Lifeline" mission.. Fifth battle.

17 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

The second in command for platoon HQ? Is it the guy with the STG-44? I can see if I can replicate the issue.

He's in a separate team from the Platoon HQ. It's called HQ support. He's marked with "Asst."

Edited August 2, 2018 by Bulletpoint

[MikeyD]

I recall a loooong time ago I did a test where I deliberately killed off 'leader' units and watched the command of the squad devolve to the next in line... who I then killed off. That was within a unified squad structure, though.

Edited August 3, 2018 by MikeyD

[Mord]

That was one of my first questions when CMSF was announced, whether leadership would be passed on down the line. In CM1 games, If your unit was lead by Lt. Jones, it stayed Lt. Jones. Leaders could never be killed (become a casualty) before the unit reached it's last dude. This seemingly minor thing made a huge difference when introduced in SF,  for the immersion factor and how it could effect the next guy up. Lt. Jones might have been a +2 hard charger, but Sgt. Baker might end up being a -1 incompetent. Important distinctions in the heat of a battle.

 

Mord.

Edited August 4, 2018 by Mord

[Combatintman]

On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 2:20 AM, Mord said:

That was one of my first questions when CMSF was announced, whether leadership would be passed on down the line. In CM1 games, If your unit was lead by Lt. Jones, it stayed Lt. Jones. Leaders could never be killed (become a casualty) before the unit reached it's last dude. This seemingly minor thing made a huge difference when introduced in SF,  for the immersion factor and how it could effect the next guy up. Lt. Jones might have been a +2 hard charger, but Sgt. Baker might end up being a -1 incompetent. Important distinctions in the heat of a battle.

 

Mord.

In RL, my experience has been that Lt Jones would be the -1, while Sgt Baker would be the +2 

[Mord]

LOL. That's probably been most soldier's experience since Roman times.

 

Mord

[DerKommissar]

Curious: does the quality of the assistant have any effect if the leader is still alive?

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

Curious: does the quality of the assistant have any effect if the leader is still alive?

Maybe.  If the assistant had his own team (the XO or 2IC team for example) he would have an effect on his own team while the leader was still alive but in a separate team (the HQ team).  When they are both in the same team and the leader is alive the assistant would not have any effect.  

Also something I learned from @Josey Wales and related:   A Leadership modifier for a HQ unit does not filter down to subordinate units.  The Leadership modifier only applies to the team/vehicle of the leader.  For example Lt Bean has -2 Leadership and is the leader of 1st Platoon HQ. His Leadership modifier does not affect the rifle squads under his command, only the 3 other troops in his HQ team have to put up with his poor team leading skills.  The Leadership modifier for all units (from Bn. HQs. to Platoon HQs. down to squads and teams) only effects the team that the modifier is for.  

Edited August 7, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

On 7/31/2018 at 12:38 PM, Bulletpoint said:

Currently playing the Peiper campaign, and in one scenario I have some SS Pz. Aufklärung platoons. One of the platoon leaders just kicked the bucket, and I expected the Assistant leader in the HQ Support Team to take over. But it doesn't seem to happen. Is it supposed to? 

It would be cool if the assistant platoon leader took over from the actual platoon leader.  Especially in this case since the platoon leader is in his own HQ support team.  However this does not happen at the platoon level in the game (at least no examples I can think of).  Instead a company HQ can fill in for a platoon HQ.  It seems once the platoon leader is KIA he can't be replaced. 

EDIT: My mistake.  It does happen but apparently not all the time.  Sorry for any confusion.      

Edited August 7, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Bulletpoint]

25 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It would be cool if the assistant platoon leader took over from the actual platoon leader.  Especially in this case since the platoon leader is in his own HQ support team.  However this does not happen at the platoon level in the game (at least no examples I can think of).  Instead a company HQ can fill in for a platoon HQ.  It seems once the platoon leader is KIA he can't be replaced.       

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised, because it's one of those things where I could swear I've seen it happen once. Maybe I am confusing it with what happens on the squad level and on the company level?

But if it works there, why wouldn't the same thing happen at the platoon level? 

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

A Leadership modifier for a HQ unit does not filter down to subordinate units.  The Leadership modifier only applies to the team/vehicle of the leader.  For example Lt Bean has -2 Leadership and is the leader of 1st Platoon HQ. His Leadership modifier does not affect the rifle squads under his command, only the 3 other troops in his HQ team have to put up with his poor team leading skills.  The Leadership modifier for all units (from Bn. HQs. to Platoon HQs. down to squads and teams) only effects the team that the modifier is for.  

That is not "as advertised".   IIRC the whole point of keeping squads in command radius of the HQ is so that the leader 's attributes would benefit the subunits.

BTW:  While I have seen an XO take over from a KIA Co CO, I don't recall ever seeing anyone take over from a KIA Platoon HQ leader.  (Have only seen that in campaigns, where in the next mission a new Platoon HQ is provided.)

Edited August 7, 2018 by Erwin

[MOS:96B2P]

54 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

why wouldn't the same thing happen at the platoon level? 

I don't know my friend.  I wish it did. 

 

46 minutes ago, Erwin said:

That is not "as advertised".   IIRC the whole point of keeping squads in command radius of the HQ is so that the leader 's attributes would benefit the subunits.  

We attempt to keep the squads in command radius to keep them in C2.  C2 = the vertical and horizontal information flow. 

Example: A fire team from 1st  platoon spots a tank.  A few minutes later the Company HQ is aware of the tank.  A few minutes more the Company HQ informs 2nd platoon and battalion about the tank (provided they are all in C2).  

Also from experiments completed by @Josey Wales: Troops within C2 range of their HQ unit are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale. Troops within the C2 link are less stressed about being shot at.  For example, a Platoon HQ being in close visual C2 link with its Company HQ provides a clear resistance to the temporary Morale effect of being suppressed.

My Note: C2 helps with suppression but not with casualties.

[General Liederkranz]

2 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

It would be cool if the assistant platoon leader took over from the actual platoon leader.  Especially in this case since the platoon leader is in his own HQ support team.  However this does not happen at the platoon level in the game (at least no examples I can think of).  Instead a company HQ can fill in for a platoon HQ.  It seems once the platoon leader is KIA he can't be replaced.       

I don’t have the game handy right now, but I’m sure I’ve seen this happen. Last night, for example, in CMBN the commander of a US Rifle Company’s Weapons Platoon was hit and the HQ Support Team, with the XO in it, became the new HQ. The icon of that unit changed and he became the center of C2 for the platoon. I’m sure I’ve seen it with others too. It gives formations with Platoon XOs (US, British) more resiliency than those without (most Soviets, some Germans).

Could it be this is a CMFB 4.0 bug? I have noticed some weirdness with Assistants in CMFB under 4.0. For example, German Volksgrenadier squads and some US Armored Infantry squads get an extra Assistant, in addition to the one they already have, but with an ordinary private’s rank. Seems like one soldier has just been mislabeled. This is obviously a different issue but it may suggest something weird happened with assistant leaders in general in the update. 

[MOS:96B2P]

47 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

I don’t have the game handy right now, but I’m sure I’ve seen this happen. Last night, for example, in CMBN the commander of a US Rifle Company’s Weapons Platoon was hit and the HQ Support Team, with the XO in it, became the new HQ. The icon of that unit changed and he became the center of C2 for the platoon. I’m sure I’ve seen it with others too. It gives formations with Platoon XOs (US, British) more resiliency than those without (most Soviets, some Germans).

You're right.  I just tested a US Weapons Platoon in CMBN.  Killed the CO.  The XO in the support team became the new platoon HQ.  

It even worked within a US infantry platoon.   Not sure why I thought this didn't work at platoon level.  I'm glad it does, at least in some circumstances.  So  @Bulletpoint I'm not sure if what you are seeing is intended behavior or not.  

Thanks @General Liederkranz.  Glad you caught that.  +1

Edited August 7, 2018 by MOS:96B2P

[Josey Wales]

The Coy XO definitely takes over if the Coy Commander goes down.

A Bttn XO does not appear take over if the Bttn Commander goes down.

It would seem as if from @Bulletpoint's post that the Asst Plt Ldr behaves more like a Bttn XO than a Coy XO.

I have no idea or explanation as why it is like this.

 

As for a leader attributes passing down to his subordinate units - this categorically does not happen. I explain this in my post The Relationship between Soft Factors, Morale & Fatigue

To conceptualise this, imagine the leadership modifier is exactly the same as the fitness modifier with respect to who it affects.

An unfit Platoon HQ that gets out of breath walking up a hill does not mean that all of the squads under their command get out of breath walking up the hill. 

The same for Leadership. A Plt Leader who has a -2 Leadership modifier only applies that modifier to the rest of the Platoon HQ. The squads are dependent on the leadership modifier of their individual Squad Leaders (or team leaders when split).

I think this gets confusing for people because of 2 reasons.

1. The Leadership modifier is the only soft factor that can dynamically change as a result of casualties.

2. It is the only one of the factors that is applied to individuals as opposed to the team as a whole. Experience, Fitness and Motivation remain the same for a unit throughout the game irrespective of which individual within the team becomes a casualty.

What I mean here is that a unit with +2 Motivation, Veteran Experience and is Fit at the start of the game will still have +2 Motivation, Veteran Experience and be Fit at the end, even if all but one member is killed and the unit is Rattled and Exhausted.  Leadership, however, will change depending on which individual becomes the casualty. If for example the sole survivor of a squad is Sgt Cane who had a +2 Leadership modifier at the beginning, the Squad will still have the +2 Leadership modifier. However if the sole survivor is Private Pants then the Leadership modifier is likely to have changed to -1 or -2. The the other soft factors will remain the same as they were at the beginning because they apply to the unit as a collective.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Josey Wales

[MOS:96B2P]

Thanks @Josey Wales.  This is one of your best explanations yet.  Each time you are asked to explain it I think you get a little better .  +1 

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, Josey Wales said:

I think this gets confusing for people because of 2 reasons.

The 3rd reason is that those of us who started with CM1 learned that it was very important to keep HQ's with good attributes close to subordinates as that indeed make a big difference in performance.  Your findings are appreciated and it seems like this is one of those "myths" that need to be unlearned in CM2.

However, I would have sworn that many years ago (CMSF days) comparisons were made in combat between units in and out of C2 of their HQ's with different attributes that there was a statistical difference in performance.  However, the difference is so subtle in CM2 (vs very obvious in CM1) that in CM2 it's hardly worth worrying about - other than keeping units in C2 for "realism" purposes.

 

[General Liederkranz]

18 minutes ago, Erwin said:

The 3rd reason is that those of us who started with CM1 learned that it was very important to keep HQ's with good attributes close to subordinates as that indeed make a big difference in performance.  Your findings are appreciated and it seems like this is one of those "myths" that need to be unlearned in CM2.

However, I would have sworn that many years ago (CMSF days) comparisons were made in combat between units in and out of C2 of their HQ's with different attributes that there was a statistical difference in performance.  However, the difference is so subtle in CM2 (vs very obvious in CM1) that in CM2 it's hardly worth worrying about - other than keeping units in C2 for "realism" purposes.

 

I find Regular and Green units, especially, much steadier when in C2. And while I kind of wish that platoon leaders' abilities affected their squads, they still do indirectly--a better-quality Platoon HQ will hold up better under fire, allowing it to keep its squads in C2 more effectively.

@Josey Wales, thank you for the great explanation!

2 hours ago, Josey Wales said:

A Bttn XO does not appear take over if the Bttn Commander goes down.

I just tried this by pulling up a scenario (CMBN MG Sacrifice for a New Religion) and killing a US Rifle Battalion CO. The XO did immediately take over.

I also tried killing a German SS Aufklarungs Platoon CO (in CMFB December Morning), and I found the same thing that @Bulletpoint did--the HQ Support Team's leader did not take over. However, I also noticed that the guy in charge of that team is labeled "Team Leader" rather than "Executive Officer" in the lower-left-hand green text that describes everyone's current activities. So I wonder if he's a different type of assistant. When I've seen "Assistants" take over, whether at platoon, company, or battalion level, they're always the "Executive Officer" type rather than "Team Leader." The difference is subtle because on the UI display down below they're both labeled "Asst," but they're different roles.

So it seems to me this behavior is intended, and the Aufklarungs Platoon HQ Support Team leader is NOT really considered an assistant platoon leader. He's just a team leader/assistant squad leader, so ineligible to take over a platoon. This would make sense, since the Aufklarungs platoons are already commanded by NCOs (Hauptscharführer) rather than officers. The HQ Support Team leaders are even more junior by two ranks (Scharführer). As I understand it that's more like a squad leader's rank than a platoon sergeant's. By contrast, SS PzGd platoons, which do have Executive Officers who can take over, are commanded by officers.

[Bulletpoint]

43 minutes ago, General Liederkranz said:

However, I also noticed that the guy in charge of that team is labeled "Team Leader" rather than "Executive Officer" in the lower-left-hand green text that describes everyone's current activities. So I wonder if he's a different type of assistant. When I've seen "Assistants" take over, whether at platoon, company, or battalion level, they're always the "Executive Officer" type rather than "Team Leader." The difference is subtle because on the UI display down below they're both labeled "Asst," but they're different roles.

Good spot, you're right. Also, the US teams that can take over are called XO.. but this one is called HQ Support Team. I wonder what its purpose is. I guess that in the game, it's basically just an extra team with binoculars for better spotting.

[General Liederkranz]

43 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Good spot, you're right. Also, the US teams that can take over are called XO.. but this one is called HQ Support Team. I wonder what its purpose is. I guess that in the game, it's basically just an extra team with binoculars for better spotting.

Good point. I don't think this is exactly a hard-and-fast rule though--the US Weapons Platoon XO is in a team called "1st Team-HQ Support" for example. I think HQ support teams are often just there to account for extra soldiers who are in the "headquarters" section of the real TO&E but would make the HQ team itself too unwieldy in game terms. Especially for the games designed before it became possible to make HQs splittable--if BFC were designing the Pz Aufk platoon again today, I wonder if the HQ would be a two-team splittable HQ squad like the Russian company HQs in CMBS.

[Josey Wales]

7 hours ago, General Liederkranz said:

I just tried this by pulling up a scenario (CMBN MG Sacrifice for a New Religion) and killing a US Rifle Battalion CO. The XO did immediately take over.

Yes agreed. I have just tried this in CMFI with a Bttn HQ and an Operations Team. When the  Bttn Commander is killed the 'Asst' of the Operations team takes over the Bttn HQ function (Icon changes).

Not sure why I thought I saw something different when I looked at this this last year but it could well have been the reason you have laid out with regards to the role description in the lower-left-hand green text.

Good spot indeed!.