Turkish Leopard 2A4 mod preview

[DerKommissar]

11 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Interesting stuff!

For those interested in the meta background on how Turkey went from NATO stalwart and EU aspirant to... well, today's situation, this is a pretty good summary:

https://adamtooze.com/2018/08/19/framing-crashed-4-the-turkish-crisis-the-missing-chapter/

Refugee situation pretty dire as well.... 

I had no idea that it was that bad. Very well written article. Now I see why Turkey is doing all they can to stall an assault on Idlib.

[Lethaface]

17 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Interesting article.  However, I only skimmed it and didn't notice the important aspect of EU coming to realize that incorporating Turkey into EU would open the floodgates to massive Islamic immigration - an increasingly serious problem in Europe already.  The WSJ recently had articles illustrating how Muslims are well on the way to creating a parallel Sharia legal system, where they can go instead of to British courts etc.

I'm glad there is no mention of those sorts in the article, for I would have stopped reading them.

I'm not going to debate these subjects, I think it is suffice to say that both ('floodgate muslim immigration from Turkey' and the 'EU Sharia') are populist myths. Also, I miss how those are correlated? Turkey doesn't feature a Sharia law; besides there is no such thing as 'the Sharia law'.

In The Netherlands (and I suspect the UK also) there already is the possibility for mediation, instead of formal courts, when parties want to settle a civil dispute. If they do wish the mediation to follow certain religious rules, that is fine as long as it is within the boundaries of the law (and all parties agree to it). Different religious groups do make use of this freedom and have been doing that for a while. It is nothing new, nor is there any small chance of our constitution being replaced with religious books. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

The WSJ recently had articles illustrating how Muslims are well on the way to creating a parallel Sharia legal system, where they can go instead of to British courts etc.

Utter bollocks. 

Are there 'Sharia courts' in Britain?

While there are undoubtedly lots of different councils and tribunals dealing with Sharia principles, they aren't courts of law.

https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/

Edited September 17, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead

[DerKommissar]

CM: Deus Vult confirmed!

[Erwin]

 

 

3 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

The WSJ recently had articles illustrating how Muslims are well on the way to creating a parallel Sharia legal system, where they can go instead of to British courts etc.

Not making it up.  WSJ article:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583

Also:  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3001087/sharia-law-uk-muslims-islamic-legal-system/

While Sharia Law does not (yet) overrule UK law, the problem is that as the population grows the pressure to include Sharia will inevitably grow.  

It's kinda like that saying "The difference between a cult and a religion is that a religion has gained political power" applies to "the difference between unenforceable laws and enforceable laws".

Edited September 17, 2018 by Erwin

[Wicky]

37 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Not making it up.  WSJ article:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583

Also:  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3001087/sharia-law-uk-muslims-islamic-legal-system/

While Sharia Law does not (yet) overrule UK law, the problem is that as the population grows the pressure to include Sharia will inevitably grow.  

It's kinda like that saying "The difference between a cult and a religion is that a religion has gained political power" applies to "the difference between unenforceable laws and enforceable laws".

Your WSJ article is an opinion piece with the writer freaked out by Muslims in general.  I studied in Leicester and survived and got into curries, and my cricket team in Colchester plays on the Army Garrison cricket pitch with a multicultural inc Muslims  team of players - heck Ismail Mohamed picks up the keys every Sunday from The Parachute Regt guardhouse and hasn't been shot yet.

The surgeon who operated on me a few years back was a Muslim, and the Consultant Anaesthetist was a handy bat / bowler for oppo club.

Yes you get a few crazies but the main problem is with ultra nationists finding folks different to themslves a problem...

[Lethaface]

2 hours ago, Erwin said:

Not making it up.  WSJ article:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535581583

Also:  https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3001087/sharia-law-uk-muslims-islamic-legal-system/

While Sharia Law does not (yet) overrule UK law, the problem is that as the population grows the pressure to include Sharia will inevitably grow.  

It's kinda like that saying "The difference between a cult and a religion is that a religion has gained political power" applies to "the difference between unenforceable laws and enforceable laws".

I don't think anyone doubted the existence of certain articles (although thesun? seriously?  ) Anyhow it's still bullocks. Besides; how does 'a growing population' equal to factual tangible pressure to 'include' Sharia law.? Also, like... what laws? Stoning people for 'avin a pint? Come on get yourself a break and go meet a Muslim near to you. He or she probably won't bite. They might invite you for tea though.
Personally I feel the 'politics' line was crossed with your first post about the Muslim subject. I had to reply but I'm happy to steer it back to the more on topic macro geopolitical / military stuff. ---

It will be 'interesting' to see what happens in the region after the, sort of, inevitable regime (Assad) victory over the rebels in Idlib. I hope it's not just the next phase of conflict, but I have some fears. There are a lot of players on the board, with converging interests. Turkey will be among the first with the ball in their court. Will they pull their (proxy) forces out of Syria and how about the Kurds? The Iranian block becomes stronger. Israel is not happy, there is always something about oil, wuddabout US, etc. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Lethaface

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

It will be 'interesting' to see what happens in the region after the, sort of, inevitable regime (Assad) victory over the rebels in Idlib. I hope it's not just the next phase of conflict, but I have some fears. 

Indeed. My concerns as well plus factor in some extra brutality from the Assad government as is thier usual pattern. It will be messy and chaotic for many more years.

[Lethaface]

1 minute ago, IanL said:

Indeed. My concerns as well plus factor in some extra brutality from the Assad government as is thier usual pattern. It will be messy and chaotic for many more years.

Yes, unfortunately I fear the battle for Idlib will also feature more of those brutalities. One can hope one day Assad will see trial for his crimes, not holding my breath though. 

[DerKommissar]

I'm curious if it was ever stated in the lore if Turkey partook in the events of SF. Hopefully we'll get DLC for them -- with NATO, most of their kit's already modeled. 

 

[Lethaface]

Not sure about the 'lore' but IIRC on the original CMSF map the Turks do have some presence. I can't find it although I'm sure I saw it somewhere this year. I tried googling it and found some images of it. It's easy to find if you look in google images searching for cmsf map scan. There are arrows into Syria from Turkey, so I guess the Turks are involved (which would be logical since NATO article 5 was invoked in the lore). 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Lethaface

[Chops]

Here is a shot of the original map.

[Battlefront.com]

On 9/17/2018 at 5:55 PM, Lethaface said:

I don't think anyone doubted the existence of certain articles (although thesun? seriously?  ) Anyhow it's still bullocks.

Heh... you noticed that as well?  Good for you

Let's leave the Islamophobia out of this, shall we?  Especially if people can't tell the difference between utter tosh found in a publication with a history of hard right nonsense in its OpEd section and something resembling a factual based piece of journalism.

Steve 

[Lethaface]

11 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Heh... you noticed that as well?  Good for you

Let's leave the Islamophobia out of this, shall we?  Especially if people can't tell the difference between utter tosh found in a publication with a history of hard right nonsense in its OpEd section and something resembling a factual based piece of journalism.

Steve 

Aye aye!

--

I'm planning to order Adam Tooze's book 'crashed' after I read the link provided by @LongLeftFlank. Too bad the chapter about Turkey didn't make the cut, although the article provided goes quite deep into the Turkish situation. Anyone here read 'Crashed'? 

[Chops]

If you guys look at the original CMSF map above, it shows that one of the Blue Force icons located in Turkey says "Euro".  Does this mean commanded by NATO?  Are there any indications from the icons that Turkish forces are included in the invasion plan?

Edited September 19, 2018 by Chops

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Chops said:

If you guys look at the original CMSF map above, it shows that one of the Blue Force icons located in Turkey says "Euro".  Does this mean commanded by NATO?  Are there any indications from the icons that Turkish forces are included in the invasion plan?

A quick look at the module list would e plain that. 

[LongLeftFlank]

On 9/20/2018 at 12:35 AM, Lethaface said:

Aye aye!

--

I'm planning to order Adam Tooze's book 'crashed' after I read the link provided by @LongLeftFlank. Too bad the chapter about Turkey didn't make the cut, although the article provided goes quite deep into the Turkish situation. Anyone here read 'Crashed'? 

Reading it now. Great stuff.

[Sequoia]

I don't want to hijack a tank mod thread any more, but was there a significant Kurd presence in parts of Syria in 2008 (the time of the Shock Force war) that Turkey, if it were not much motivated to go after Assad in our dirty bomb scenario along with the rest of NATO,  would be motivated to "pacify"?

[ncc1701e]

On 9/19/2018 at 6:35 PM, Lethaface said:

Aye aye!

--

I'm planning to order Adam Tooze's book 'crashed' after I read the link provided by @LongLeftFlank. Too bad the chapter about Turkey didn't make the cut, although the article provided goes quite deep into the Turkish situation. Anyone here read 'Crashed'? 

Adam Tooze's "The Wages of Destruction" was also an interesting book regarding WW2. I am waiting "Crashed" traduction in my native language otherwise it would be to complicate for me to read.

[Lethaface]

Thanks all. I've ordered crashed, his other books seems interesting too indeed.

[A Canadian Cat]

7 hours ago, Sequoia said:

I don't want to hijack a tank mod thread any more, but was there a significant Kurd presence in parts of Syria in 2008

Certainly. There are people of Kurdish ethnicity in Syria, Turkey, Iraqi and iran and they have been there for a long long time. Way longer than the borders it those countries.

[Sequoia]

5 hours ago, IanL said:

Certainly. There are people of Kurdish ethnicity in Syria, Turkey, Iraqi and iran and they have been there for a long long time. Way longer than the borders it those countries.

What I'm wondering is, Turkey was already under the Erdogan regime in 2008. I'm not familiar with the basis of Sgt S.'s scenario but I'm wondering how committed to the Shockforce war would Turkey be in 2008? If they weren't very motivated to help drive on Damascus, perhaps the opportunity to enter Syria to smack the Kurds around would have been as tempting for them in 2008 as it has been recently.

[MikeyD]

As an aside, I've started the Turkish YPRs. Plain's about done, attempts to camou will come next.

 

[Combatintman]

5 hours ago, Sequoia said:

What I'm wondering is, Turkey was already under the Erdogan regime in 2008. I'm not familiar with the basis of Sgt S.'s scenario but I'm wondering how committed to the Shockforce war would Turkey be in 2008? If they weren't very motivated to help drive on Damascus, perhaps the opportunity to enter Syria to smack the Kurds around would have been as tempting for them in 2008 as it has been recently.

Given that the global economy collapsed in 2008, I doubt anybody would have been that overly motivated to embark on a military adventure unless it was one of national survival in that year. The so-called Kurdish problem would be an unlikely motivator for Turkey that year.

[Sequoia]

Mike, great job as usual. You're spoiling us. I'm trying to figure out the best use for them.    .

Well as you know, the motivation for "our" war is the dirty bombs. The conventional war is over by June and the World economy doesn't go off the cliff until September. I know we can make up whatever scenarios we choose, but I prefer my what-ifs to be grounded in reality (no Sealion for me thank you ).  In my limited perspective I can see Turkey committing enough of a force in June, even as a token to show it's full commitment to NATO (besides allowing full NATO access to deploy forces, which is a must for the NATO module scenarios), to come up with a conventional scenario or even a campaign. The possibility of eventually joining the EU was much more a possibility and motivator to Turkey at the time IIRC. Then of course there's the Kurds . If all this is not likely someone please correct me.