History accuracy

[Combatintman]

9 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

Since I apparently got nothing better to do I looked at some reports to get more data regarding the idea that "Infantry Divisions had no G41s or G43s". Let's see:

197. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

II. Deutsche Waffen
7.485 x Karabiner 98k
94 x Karabiner 98 k mit Zielfernrohr
213 x Gewehr 41 und 43
2 x Granatbüchse 39
1.289 x Pistolen
697 x Maschinenpistole 38/40
30 x Maschinenpistole 44

III. Beutewaffen
25 x Maschinenpistolen (r)
26 x Gewehr (r)
2 x 5,2cm Granatwerfer (r)
3 x Panzerbüchsen (r)
4 x 28cm Mörser (f)
7 x 7,5cm Kanone 231 (f)

256. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

7.106 x Karabiner
81 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
162 x Gewehr 41
360 x Gewehr-Granat-Gerät
702 x Maschinenpistolen (davon 38 = MPi 43)
1.679 x Pistolen
65 x Panzerschreck
1 x Nebelwerfer 35
21 x leichte Maschinengewehre 08/15
8 x leichte Maschinengewehr 13
2 x leichte Maschinengewehr 15
1 x schwere Maschinengewehre 08

(zur Instandsetzung und Waffenreserve)
11 x leichte Maschinengewehre
6 x schwere Maschinengewehre
7 x mittlere Granatwerfer
1 x 7,62cm Feldkanone 288 (r)

II. Beutewaffen

499 x Gewehre (r)
83 x leichte Maschinengewehre (r)
3 x schwere Maschinengewehre (r)
50 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f)
19 x leichte Maschinengewehre (t)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehre (e)
1 x leichter Granatwerfer (r)
3 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
9 x mittlere Granatwerfer (f)
9 x 4,5cm Pak (r)

42. Jäger-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(In Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

10.678 x Gewehre
68 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
23 x Gewehre 41
2.470 x Pistolen
436 x Maschinenpistolen
64 x Granat-Büchsen
403 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
10 x 3,7cm Pak

II. Beutewaffen

58 x Gewehre (j)

343. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in der Kriegsgliederung nicht enthaltene deutsche Waffen)

6.211 x Karabiner 98K
84 x Gewehre 98
9 x Gewehre 98a
65 x Gewehre 41
130 x Karabiner 98 mit Zielfernrohr
528 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
735 x Maschinenpistolen
1.959 x Pistolen 08/38
1.077 x Pistolen 7,65mm

II. Beutewaffen
(nur Granatwerfer, Maschinengewehre und Gewehre)

804 x Gewehre (j)
305 x Gewehre (f)
870 x Gewehre (r)
674 x Gewehre 24(t)
41 x selbstladende Gewehre (r)
3 x Karabiner 454 (r)
27 x Pistolen (r)
29 x Maschinenpistolen (r)

264. Infanterie-Division (30.11.1943)

7.751 x Karabiner 98K
199 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
200 x Gewehre 41 (W)
3.557 x Pistolen 38
875 x Maschinenpistolen 40
545 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
71 x 8cm Granatwerfer 34
12 x 7,5cm leichtes Infanterie-Geschütz 18
6 x 7,62cm J.H.K. 290 (r)
4 x 5cm Pak (leihweise vom OKH zur Ausbildung zugewiesen)
10 x 2cm Flak

I could go on.

Of course you could ... but going back to the 'history accuracy' premise of the OP's first post and your assertions that documents might have been destroyed and reports were issued monthly, it is quite clear that it is pretty difficult to establish the what weapons were available to a particular division on 06 June 1944. I also could go on in relation to the 'history accuracy' theme as follows:

What was the distribution of weapons across X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the distribution of weapons across X Division on 07 June 1944?

Who was the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

Who was the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the strength of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the strength of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

How many rounds by individual ammunition nature did 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division have on 06 June 1944?

How many rounds by individual ammunition nature did 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division have on 07 June 1944?

What was the experience level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the experience level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the fatigue level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the fatigue level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the leadership rating for the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on a scale of -2 to +2 on 06 June 1944?

What was the leadership rating for the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on a scale of -2 to +2 on 07 June 1944?

Rinse and repeat for every sub-unit in every division both Allied and Axis for every day of the Normandy Campaign.

Fill your boots ...

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Combatintman

[DMS]

On 6/24/2018 at 10:07 PM, JoMc67 said:

Also, if you purchase CMRT, then you will see a big discrepancy in how many SMG's, SVT's and the lack of Bolt-Rifles in a Soviet/Russian Rifle Squad compared to what it should be

Number of SMGs is correct and slightly bellow historicall number. IRL 1 of 3 platoons were armed by SMGs and MGs only. In 1943, before Kursk battle, some divisions had more SMGs than rifles! What about SVTs - correct, realistic number would be 1-2 in squad in the best case.

In general, it would be great if game would have TO&E editor. Tables changed dramatically in different units, (in Eastern front - for sure) it is impossible to make single TO&E that is correct for most units.

[sburke]

2 hours ago, DMS said:

Number of SMGs is correct and slightly bellow historicall number. IRL 1 of 3 platoons were armed by SMGs and MGs only. In 1943, before Kursk battle, some divisions had more SMGs than rifles! What about SVTs - correct, realistic number would be 1-2 in squad in the best case.

In general, it would be great if game would have TO&E editor. Tables changed dramatically in different units, (in Eastern front - for sure) it is impossible to make single TO&E that is correct for most units.

As noted before Steve has said he will not do this.  As I recall one example he used is suppose you and I are going to play a PBEM.  How do I know you have not edited the ToE?  That was just one example of how this becomes impractical pretty quickly from their view.  CM is not the game you are trying to turn it into.  As with all of us who have wish lists (me included), you have to compromise them based on what CM really is not what you or I wish it was.

Edited June 30, 2018 by sburke

[Badger73]

On 6/30/2018 at 12:46 PM, DMS said:

<snipped>

In general, it would be great if game would have TO&E editor. Tables changed dramatically in different units, (in Eastern front - for sure) it is impossible to make single TO&E that is correct for most units.

This is already achievable in the game as is, just not as a defined TO&E editor.  The game quantifies these changes for "fairness" too.  In any Quick Battle or Scenario Edit, one can always delete unwanted unit elements down to squad level and add whatever and however may special teams as one desires.  Selecting for an urban attack?  Add a couple Scout teams with demo charges and a few Engineer teams to your assault platoons.  Same goes for BAR, MG, Flame, and Bazooka teams.  Add these specialists to an existing company or platoon HQ and you can tweak the battle force all kinds of interesting ways.  The net result is still "balanced" by the selection points in H2H games.  Play around in the Editor to see for yourself.

[DMS]

On 6/30/2018 at 12:19 AM, sburke said:

That was just one example of how this becomes impractical pretty quickly from their view

Yeah, my suggestion must be naive... If it wasn't made for many years that game exists, there are reasons.

5 hours ago, Badger73 said:

In any Quick Battle or Scenario Edit, one can always delete unwanted unit elements down to squad level and add whatever and however may special teams as one desires. 

Yes, I do like that sometimes! When I wanted to make a city assault group I took 1943 rifle company, deleted squads and added scout teams, lmg teams, sappers, snipers, tanks. Not 100% historically correct, (must be 6 men smg squads) but pretty close.

[A Canadian Cat]

4 hours ago, DMS said:

Yes, I do like that sometimes! When I wanted to make a city assault group I took 1943 rifle company, deleted squads and added scout teams, lmg teams, sappers, snipers, tanks. Not 100% historically correct, (must be 6 men smg squads) but pretty close.

One other thing you can do in the editor is use the percentage casualty option. 70% strength three man scout team usually ends up as 2 men.

[RockinHarry]

On 7/2/2018 at 3:10 PM, IanL said:

One other thing you can do in the editor is use the percentage casualty option. 70% strength three man scout team usually ends up as 2 men.

I usually get rid of the observer from the sniper team with the 50% casualty option.

[DMS]

On 7/2/2018 at 5:10 PM, IanL said:

One other thing you can do in the editor is use the percentage casualty option. 70% strength three man scout team usually ends up as 2 men.

I wish we would have this option in quick battles. I would use it very often, 6 DPs in platoon is a gamey a little. I like the firepower, but feel like in easy mode... (And "1944" TO&E has too much men in squad)

[StieliAlpha]

On 6/30/2018 at 9:00 AM, Ts4EVER said:

Since I apparently got nothing better to do I looked at some reports to get more data regarding the idea that "Infantry Divisions had no G41s or G43s". Let's see:

197. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

II. Deutsche Waffen
7.485 x Karabiner 98k
94 x Karabiner 98 k mit Zielfernrohr
213 x Gewehr 41 und 43
2 x Granatbüchse 39
1.289 x Pistolen
697 x Maschinenpistole 38/40
30 x Maschinenpistole 44

III. Beutewaffen
25 x Maschinenpistolen (r)
26 x Gewehr (r)
2 x 5,2cm Granatwerfer (r)
3 x Panzerbüchsen (r)
4 x 28cm Mörser (f)
7 x 7,5cm Kanone 231 (f)

256. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

7.106 x Karabiner
81 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
162 x Gewehr 41
360 x Gewehr-Granat-Gerät
702 x Maschinenpistolen (davon 38 = MPi 43)
1.679 x Pistolen
65 x Panzerschreck
1 x Nebelwerfer 35
21 x leichte Maschinengewehre 08/15
8 x leichte Maschinengewehr 13
2 x leichte Maschinengewehr 15
1 x schwere Maschinengewehre 08

(zur Instandsetzung und Waffenreserve)
11 x leichte Maschinengewehre
6 x schwere Maschinengewehre
7 x mittlere Granatwerfer
1 x 7,62cm Feldkanone 288 (r)

II. Beutewaffen

499 x Gewehre (r)
83 x leichte Maschinengewehre (r)
3 x schwere Maschinengewehre (r)
50 x leichte Maschinengewehre (f)
19 x leichte Maschinengewehre (t)
1 x leichtes Maschinengewehre (e)
1 x leichter Granatwerfer (r)
3 x mittlere Granatwerfer (r)
9 x mittlere Granatwerfer (f)
9 x 4,5cm Pak (r)

42. Jäger-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(In Kriegsgliederung nicht eingezeichnet)

10.678 x Gewehre
68 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
23 x Gewehre 41
2.470 x Pistolen
436 x Maschinenpistolen
64 x Granat-Büchsen
403 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
10 x 3,7cm Pak

II. Beutewaffen

58 x Gewehre (j)

343. Infanterie-Division (01.06.1944)

I. Deutsche Waffen
(in der Kriegsgliederung nicht enthaltene deutsche Waffen)

6.211 x Karabiner 98K
84 x Gewehre 98
9 x Gewehre 98a
65 x Gewehre 41
130 x Karabiner 98 mit Zielfernrohr
528 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
735 x Maschinenpistolen
1.959 x Pistolen 08/38
1.077 x Pistolen 7,65mm

II. Beutewaffen
(nur Granatwerfer, Maschinengewehre und Gewehre)

804 x Gewehre (j)
305 x Gewehre (f)
870 x Gewehre (r)
674 x Gewehre 24(t)
41 x selbstladende Gewehre (r)
3 x Karabiner 454 (r)
27 x Pistolen (r)
29 x Maschinenpistolen (r)

264. Infanterie-Division (30.11.1943)

7.751 x Karabiner 98K
199 x Zielfernrohrgewehre
200 x Gewehre 41 (W)
3.557 x Pistolen 38
875 x Maschinenpistolen 40
545 x Gewehr-Granat-Geräte
71 x 8cm Granatwerfer 34
12 x 7,5cm leichtes Infanterie-Geschütz 18
6 x 7,62cm J.H.K. 290 (r)
4 x 5cm Pak (leihweise vom OKH zur Ausbildung zugewiesen)
10 x 2cm Flak

I could go on.

Impressive research. What confirms that is it true reporting?

What does it tell us broken down to CM level?

What about weapons distribution on Squad level?

What does it tell us about effectiveness?

What does it tell us about „game weapons effect“ vs „real effect“?

What would it help us, if „the Game“ would tell us „there is exactly the right number of weapons and ammo for each formation and Nation“? Probably nothing.

BTW (as I mentioned a loooong time ago), other factors are not portrayed at all. What about food? What about water (which should be an issue at least in longer FI battles)?

My opinion still is: Too much Information is not helpful.

CM is a game and feels mostly right. E.g., If it would have just an „ammo bar” nobody would care. 

[StieliAlpha]

On 6/30/2018 at 6:14 PM, Combatintman said:

Of course you could ... but going back to the 'history accuracy' premise of the OP's first post and your assertions that documents might have been destroyed and reports were issued monthly, it is quite clear that it is pretty difficult to establish the what weapons were available to a particular division on 06 June 1944. I also could go on in relation to the 'history accuracy' theme as follows:

What was the distribution of weapons across X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the distribution of weapons across X Division on 07 June 1944?

Who was the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

Who was the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the strength of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the strength of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

How many rounds by individual ammunition nature did 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division have on 06 June 1944?

How many rounds by individual ammunition nature did 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division have on 07 June 1944?

What was the experience level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the experience level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the fatigue level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 06 June 1944?

What was the fatigue level of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on 07 June 1944?

What was the leadership rating for the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on a scale of -2 to +2 on 06 June 1944?

What was the leadership rating for the commander of 1 Zug/1 Kp/I Abt/1 Regt/X Division on a scale of -2 to +2 on 07 June 1944?

Rinse and repeat for every sub-unit in every division both Allied and Axis for every day of the Normandy Campaign.

Fill your boots ...

 

Sorry, mate. I missed your post, which is quite much in line with my previous post.

[Ts4EVER]

The point of my post was to refute OPs argument that Infantry units had no G41s and G43s, only Panzergrenadiers did. According to these numbers, Infanterie Divisions indeed had them, as portrayed ingame.

[Combatintman]

14 hours ago, StieliAlpha said:

Sorry, mate. I missed your post, which is quite much in line with my previous post.

That's where I was going with my post as well.

[StieliAlpha]

7 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

The point of my post was to refute OPs argument that Infantry units had no G41s and G43s, only Panzergrenadiers did. According to these numbers, Infanterie Divisions indeed had them, as portrayed ingame.

Ooops, yes, one can read it that way too.

Sorry, I was too much focussed on the search for „accuracy“. That always hits the button for me.

A game is at best a model. And no model can be accurate in all aspects. If it could, it would be the real thing.

[Ts4EVER]

Yes, that being said, I personally feel there is a certain disconnect between the level of detail when it comes to vehicles variants (Panzer IV Ausf. H (early)) and Infantry equipment. I wish there was some bigger variety there just for historical flavor, even if maybe the actual gameplay effect would be small. I'd have to imagine that modifying a TOE or making a new type of rifle is ultimately less work than making some obscure tank. I made a thread about this before, but some examples of infantry weapons that in my eyes should be added to the WW2 series:

For German infantry set to "ill-equipped":

MG26(t) (to replace random amounts of MG34/42)

MP Beretta (especially for the Bulge game)

MP 28

Luftwaffe Field Division stuff:

MG15 / MG81

And the G41(w) as replacement for the G43 on 1943 and early 1944 maps

In terms of TOE for the Eastern Front game:

A variant of the Grenadier Kompanie with 1 Sturmzug for those Divisions that had the MP43 introduced. Call it Grenadier-Kompanie (Stg) or whatever, just copy the already existing one and change it a bit.

If the Italy Game includes old style (1941) Infanterie ToE, port it over to the Normandy game as well.

For Russians:

Fewer SVT40s for Russian infantry in 1944 / 45. (In fact, I know of no photo of a Tokarev rifle on the front post 1943, although I am willing to be proven wrong on this)

A variant of the Rifle Company with an smg platoon.

PRTS semi automatic for units set to "Better than average" equipment.

For Americans:

M9A1 Bazooka and M1919A6 set to proper start date (post Normandy)

Springfield grenade launcher in Normandy and Bulge if equipment set to bad. Again, can be ported over from Italy.

[General Liederkranz]

5 hours ago, Ts4EVER said:

M9A1 Bazooka and M1919A6 set to proper start date (post Normandy)

 

As I recall, before v4 the M1919A6 was properly restricted to later-war scenarios. It's only after v4 that I've started seeing it earlier (like in ordinary rifle company HW platoons in the Troina campaign, August 1943, which does not seem right at all).

Is there any in-game difference (besides appearance) between the M1 and M9 bazookas? 

Edited July 5, 2018 by General Liederkranz

[Ts4EVER]

No, Sicily is not right at all, although some where tested near Salerno, apparently.

I assume the M9 Bazooka is more accurate, since it has a scope.

[Badger73]

We can start with Wikepedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazooka

It seems the M1 could penetrate 76mm of armor while the M9 could penetration 102mm.  The M9 was 3 inches longer, used improved rocket rounds, and was 3 lbs / 1.5 kilo's lighter.

Rocket Launcher, M1 "Bazooka"

• First issued June 14, 1942 by Capt. L.A. Skinner

• Used the M6 HEAT and M7 Practice rockets.

• Could penetrate up to 3 inches (76 mm) of armor.

• Velocity of 265fps (80.77 m/s, 180 mph)

• Overall Length: 54 inches.

• Weight (unloaded): 18 lbs.

Rocket Launcher, M1A1 "Bazooka"

• Improved electrical system

• Simplified design

• Used the M6A1 HEAT and M7A1 Practice rockets.

• Forward hand grip removed.

• Contact box removed.

• Supplanted the M1 in production beginning in July, 1943.

• Overall Length: 54.5 inches (1,380 mm).

• Weight (unloaded): 13.26 pounds (6.01 kg).

Rocket Launcher, M9 "Bazooka"

• Battery ignition replaced by trigger magneto.

• Could be disassembled into two halves for easier carrying.

• Metal instead of wooden furniture

• Used the improved M6A3 HEAT, M7A3 practice, and M10 Bursting Smoke (White Phosphorus) rockets (Weight: 3.4 lbs., Velocity: 265 feet per second).

• Could penetrate up to 4 inches (102 mm) of armor

• Supplanted the M1A1 in production beginning in October, 1943

• Overall Length: 61 inches (1,500 mm) fixed / 31.5 inches (800 mm) folded.

• Weight (unloaded): 15.14 pounds (6.87 kg).

Rocket Launcher, M9A1 "Bazooka"

• Improved coupling mechanism for launch tube

• Optical reflector sight replaced the iron sights beginning in September 1944

• Supplanted the M9 in production beginning in June, 1944.

• Overall Length: 61.1 inches (1,550 mm) fixed / 31.5 inches (800 mm) folded.

• Weight (unloaded): 15.87 pounds (7.20 kg).

[DougPhresh]

The M1919A6 is indeed available earlier in CMFI.

As for the SVT, this is apparently Belorussia in April '44.

 

[Ts4EVER]

13 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

The M1919A6 is indeed available earlier in CMFI.

As for the SVT, this is apparently Belorussia in April '44.

 



You need to link to an address.

[DougPhresh]

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=15267

[Ts4EVER]

8 hours ago, DougPhresh said:

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=15267

That picture is a well known one from Stalingrad. Interestingly, it is also not an SVT40 but an AVS-36, which was still in use this early in the war.

[LongLeftFlank]

"Counting cards... "

[kklownboy]

@ LongLeftFlank

  As usual, you crap on a thread. They should ban you.

 

 

 

[LongLeftFlank]

Wow, lighten up mate. Maybe take a walk and get some fresh air. Or just use the Ignore thingy if I really bother you that much.

But anybody who reads my handle or has any idea of my work knows I am part of the OCD Mr Picky vanguard. To each his own.

Peace. 

[LukeFF]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:45 PM, StieliAlpha said:

CM is a game and feels mostly right. E.g., If it would have just an „ammo bar” nobody would care. 

CMSF had/has an "ammo bar," and it frankly sucked.