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MANoWAR.U51

Do Schtora and APS beneftit close-by tanks?

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Posted (edited)

Playing the BS Battlepack and asking myself if an APS or Shtora system do benefit other vehicles very close by i. e. could the APS vehicle intercept incoming ordnance aimed at the neighbour vehicle?

Also do I assume right that the Schtora´s ingame advantage is that it will lead to an higher probability for ATGM guidance to fail or are there more? Like higher probability for conventional tank weapons to miss or time to aquire the target due to disruption of the laser range finder?

Also I noticed that ERA, Shtora and Arena vehicles often appear only with one aspect fitted to them (i. e. BMP-3). Is this hardcoded or do mission creators have the option to fit multiple systems to one vehicle?

 

Thanks

Edited by MANoWAR.U51

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Posted (edited)

MANoWAR.U51,

Because of the extent of the screen, and because of disruption of SACLOS ATGM guidance, Shtora could protect nearby tanks and such, but because intercept occurs practically at the tank, Arena offers little hope of protection for other vehicles unless they are almost directly online with the target tank. In other words, there is some possibility the system might go after something which could be a near miss, thus stopping it from hitting an AFV further back and on nearly the same axis of fire. This is based on how the systems actually operate. Can't speak to what happens in CMBS, though. Both are shown here, mercifully with English subtitles.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited by John Kettler

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Posted (edited)
On 6.6.2018 at 7:54 PM, Muzzleflash1990 said:

As for whether APS equipment can intercept munition not aimed at the vehicle it is mounted on, the answer is a definitive yes.

Yeah also had the impression that in Black Sea moving several softkill/hardkill capable vehicles in "packs" gives them somewhat higher survivability.

Also thanks John for providing the informative video.  

Edited by MANoWAR.U51

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Posted (edited)

That's what it looks like to me.....So APS is OK against opponents lacking airpower & sophisticated targeting electronics, but it's probably not something you'd want to deploy against a peer opponent, or so it seems.

This will put the cat amongst the pigeons for sure.  ;)

See the discussion here:  http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1511-active-protection-system-aps-for-tanks/?page=3

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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I was playing the first mission of the UKR campaign in BS. I had an Oplot-M's APS destroy an RPG aimed at a BTR-4. It detected the infantry and shot a bunch of MGs at them, they vanished. I moved the tank up, a bit -- boom! BTR-4 was hit by an RPG from the assumed clear area. Driver being the only KIA for that mission. After that, I brought the infantry in...

 

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On 6/11/2018 at 4:02 AM, Sgt.Squarehead said:

That's what it looks like to me.....So APS is OK against opponents lacking airpower & sophisticated targeting electronics, but it's probably not something you'd want to deploy against a peer opponent, or so it seems.

This will put the cat amongst the pigeons for sure.  ;)

See the discussion here:  http://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1511-active-protection-system-aps-for-tanks/?page=3

Ground deployment of radar imitators has been a thing for a while now both on their own or combined with visual/heat imitators. I'm sure the detecting side has ways of their own to work through false information, but it's never just as easy as that picture claims. 

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I am curious as to how precise this detection is. Would airborne or ground sensors be able to pin-point the source or get the general area (city block). I take it APS radars are low to the ground and lower power. SNR is nothing like one would expect from a conventional ground-based radar. I'm sure APS can be turned off like conventional ground-based radar when not in use, potentially alleviating this issue. 

SEAD-like strike possible? I'd surely think so. However it would require more precise sensors, for sure. Maybe mount a passive radar on a drone?

Edited by DerKommissar

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Well the trick is with an active transmitting radar on the target you may not need your own radar to pick up its position, just a passive radar receiver, that is exactly how anti radiation missiles these days work which are designed to knock out AA radars. The missile´s sensor head picks up the radar´s emission, at best the pilot invests further time to allow for a better target solution, next you launch the missile and it homes onto the enemy radar source, going fire-and-forget at some point, and hits without the target noticing in most cases. AA radars have also Radar-Warning-Receivers but these don´t react to these passive emission-guided weapons.  Although newer ARM´s often have an additional radar which is often used to pinpoint its terminal guidance. This also makes it possible to hit the target even when it goes dark i. e. switches of its active radar.

To get back to topic, if it is really an effective way to combat tanks on basis of their APS emissions I can´t tell for sure but for now it looks like this has no priority. Sure it brings the huge possible advantage of engaging ground vehicles un-assisted beyond visible or IR range but at the moment combat aircraft nevertheless have complete superiority over tanks (when enemy SAM and Air threats are covered of course). A conventional optical/infared AGM (like Maverick or KH-29) needs a closer distance but can do the same job, probably cost less then an ARM, and can engage a bigger variety of targets with or without APS.

However the ability to pick up these enemy APS emissions with passive radar receivers could come with a huge tactical advantage alone already for ground and air forces.

But never say never when it comes to military technology, who knows, as this systems become continuous proliferated somebody may one day see reason to design specific weapons to exploit the radar emission of APS systems.

Edited by MANoWAR.U51

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Even just tracking when hostile APS radar flicks on/off would give you info on enemy presence (despite decoys).

I can imagine peer-war FS doctrine developing to where a certain percentage of positive APS radar hits generates a "good enough" threshold to trigger an automatic barrage fire from autonomous rocket batteries. 

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You don't need a precise location to blanket an area in air and artillery munitions. You don't need a target, you just need a target area. The trick is to energize the radar after assembly, during movement to contact.

Problem with that is RADAR takes time to energize. No idea how long because it's all esoteric to me, but it does take some measure of time. 

Edited by Rinaldi

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