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Update on Engine 4 patches

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2 hours ago, Ultradave said:

I think it ok to say that the patches and modules are being worked on simultaneously (without getting into gory details or violating any confidentiality).

But I bet some resources are being spent on the patch that could be used to develop other stuff.  At least I hope so.

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8 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Hi Elvis

I saw you in Brockwell Park in 1978. Ah, we were all so much younger then..... 

"I know you"
"You gave me this tattoo back in eighty-two"
"You were a spoilt child then with a record to plug"
"And I was a shaven-headed seaside thug"
"Things haven't really changed that much"
"One of us is still getting paid too much"

 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

Can anyone who plays both CMSF2(patched version) and the WW2 titles  comment on the benefits of the patch?

I've got all the CM games (all but CM:BO are still installed and in use too), in my experience CM:SF2 is the least effected by Engine 4 Issues (men scattering under indirect or direct fire).

Yes your men will still sometimes do dumb things, but hey.....Guess what?  ;)

Edited by Sgt.Squarehead

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3 hours ago, Ultradave said:

One of the issues is that TO&E and unit types available change by the year and sometimes by the month. To take Fortress Italy as an example, multiple countries involved, each of those with arrival and withdrawal dates of types of units and those unit types TO&E changed many times as time passed. You theoretically could write an all encompassing TO&E document. Theoretically. If you had someone to do it.🙂

If you have all this complicated changes, and they are trying to implement them in the game, then the logic thing is to write it down, get it approved and then implement it according to the approved document. I can't see why this isn't the logic way. It doesn't have to be a single document, you can create one per force or per year, I don't know. Then have testers check the units against those documents. Lack of knowledge by the testers can't be an excuse, you have to give them the tools to know if something is wrong. That or hire professional historians as testers.

But I'm a bit confused about what the standardization that has been thrown around means? Is it that units where created using different methods in each game and they have now decided to use a single method across the games even tough units are composed differently in terms of men?

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3 minutes ago, Ivan Zaitzev said:

If you have all this complicated changes, and they are trying to implement them in the game, then the logic thing is to write it down, get it approved and then implement it according to the approved document. I can't see why this isn't the logic way. It doesn't have to be a single document, you can create one per force or per year, I don't know. Then have testers check the units against those documents. Lack of knowledge by the testers can't be an excuse, you have to give them the tools to know if something is wrong. That or hire professional historians as testers.

But I'm a bit confused about what the standardization that has been thrown around means? Is it that units where created using different methods in each game and they have now decided to use a single method across the games even tough units are composed differently in terms of men?

I'm just a beta tester and do not have that kind of knowledge. There are a couple who have encyclopedia like knowledge. They aren't me 🙂  I only wanted to point out that there are a lot of variables. 

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I would have thought after 12-13 years of building and patching these games that someone at BFC would have figured out a more methodical way of doing at best, or figured out the effort to do it at worst.

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Now not in defense of BFC, but more like misery loves company...eSims has been working on a patch on Steel Beasts for years.  Not only that, but the last patch left out a fairly significant terrain upgrade.  There are a significant number of mistakes, issues, fixes, etc. that should be addressed and they continue to delay the patch/upgrade to the point even they admit the ridiculousness of it.

They are a little better at communicating the issues, but not much.

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4 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

I would have thought after 12-13 years of building and patching these games that someone at BFC would have figured out a more methodical way of doing at best, or figured out the effort to do it at worst.

They have no clue what they do and they have no pipeline. Lets see how all this turns out.

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31 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

wait i thought the "scattering men" issue was fixed, so it shouldnt be an issue at all in patched up CMSF2.

It is fixed. Men will no longer displace out of cover into the open when under artillery/direct fire. I believe @Sgt.Squarehead was referring to the more nuanced tweaks made to infantry behavior that shipped with CMSF2, instead of just the artillery fix. 

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I don't really understand how a standardized WW2 TO&E got intertwined with a fix for this bug when it's been known about for over 2 years and Engine 4 users have already had to endure the wait for CMSF2 before the fix was supposedly "just on the heels of its release".

I'm assuming this is for a future module or modules, but what about the people who already paid for Engine 4 (or SF without updated campaigns)?  Couldn't this have waited a little while?

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23 minutes ago, DzrtFox said:

I don't really understand how a standardized WW2 TO&E got intertwined with a fix for this bug when it's been known about for over 2 years and Engine 4 users have already had to endure the wait for CMSF2 before the fix was supposedly "just on the heels of its release".

In my opinion (that and a dollar won't get you a cup of coffee anymore, maybe a thimble of coffee though) BF has been tying too much into each patch.  I think they said the same thing further up in this thread and that future patches would be more limited - but then again maybe not.

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4 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

I've got all the CM games (all but CM:BO are still installed and in use too), in my experience CM:SF2 is the least effected by Engine 4 Issues (men scattering under indirect or direct fire).

Yes your men will still sometimes do dumb things, but hey.....Guess what?  ;)

36 minutes ago, IICptMillerII said:

It is fixed. Men will no longer displace out of cover into the open when under artillery/direct fire. I believe @Sgt.Squarehead was referring to the more nuanced tweaks made to infantry behavior that shipped with CMSF2, instead of just the artillery fix. 

Would be interested to know whether the bug that causes the positions of tentative icons to not be updated is resolved or not?

Also, I do not suppose CMSF2 has any acquirable mortars à la CMBN carrier section to know whether the bugs with acquiring those is resolved also does it?

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25 minutes ago, Oliver_88 said:

Would be interested to know whether the bug that causes the positions of tentative icons to not be updated is resolved or not?

I can confirm that tentative icons update in CMSF2, I'm watching some do it right now.....Group #13, your nemesis awaits!  :ph34r:

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13 hours ago, sburke said:

LOL yeah umm to actually develop that would take more time than the patch and likely still be wrong.  Sure Charles could stop what he is doing to try and create that, but the net result would likely be that everything grinds to a halt and there is no progress.  I don't think you fully understand the variable complexity of the ToE and how much is actually being researched as the modules are built.  You can't build regression testing if you don't have the data yet as to what you would test.  The assumption that there is an agreed upon ToE database for all these forces covering the war is a 50 ton fly in your ointment.

I frankly have no idea how they even keep this stuff straight, certain individuals must have massive libraries and near eidetic memory to recall it all.

LOL - I did not say this is easy and this is to be done for the current patches. This is just an investment going forward. The more modules or new games introduced, the more problems the beta testers will have to cover everything. And it will harder and harder to deliver patches that won't break game 1 or 3 to refer to Elvis' post.

Sure, this will impact the developers to create the API / CLI needed. But, the developers don't necessarily have to write the tests. The super individuals with the positronic memories (sorry Star Trek 🤣) may write them inside a common framework for testing automatically each changes on each games.

Based on my own experience, the time gain is prodigious and allow to concentrate on the future instead of repeating over and over the same tests of the existing.

But, yeah, you are completely right. I do not know the complexity behind TO&E database or the rest of all the CM software. You are the experts and you know what you are doing. This is just my experience and I can tell you that my testers are very happy of the automation framework we have built.

Anyhow, a big THANK YOU for all the beta testers working hard to deliver those patches.

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6 hours ago, DesertFox said:

They have no clue what they do and they have no pipeline. Lets see how all this turns out.

LOL yeah Charles and Steve have no idea what they are doing. CM is just a thing they wing at when not sipping Margaritas on the beach.  😒

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6 hours ago, Thewood1 said:

I would have thought after 12-13 years of building and patching these games that someone at BFC would have figured out a more methodical way of doing at best, or figured out the effort to do it at worst.

yes and no.  The move to the full installers and a standardized engine was a great move forward I think we can all agree on.  It like everything else though has some unintended consequences.  CMFI has been a beast for ToE from day 1.  The new module is where it all comes to a head as you have multiple nationalities and a front that was treated as a bastard step child at the time.  It really shows in what BF is going through trying to make that ToE fit in the engine.   Folks think it has been fun tinkering with dates and equipment in previous games... ha this one will be causing you to reach for the aspirin.  BF would have to chime in regarding decisions on resources and approach on the patch versus the modules.

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9 hours ago, DougPhresh said:

There must be Osprey or similar grog books that have the TO&E all laid out. Those Battle order books come to mind https://ospreypublishing.com/store/military-history/series-books/battle-orders

I think the problem with that might be that a single source won't always get it right. Multiple sources have to be consulted and compared, and even then something might turn up later that invalidates what you've done. History is fluid, especially for perfectionists like BFC and their core customers.

Michael

 

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37 minutes ago, sburke said:

LOL yeah Charles and Steve have no idea what they are doing. CM is just a thing they wing at when not sipping Margaritas on the beach.  😒

Good to know they've got their priorities straight!

:lol:

Michael

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1 hour ago, sburke said:

yes and no.  The move to the full installers and a standardized engine was a great move forward I think we can all agree on.  It like everything else though has some unintended consequences.

How does this impact CMBS? It shares more with SF2 than with any of the WWII titles.

I understand the German TOE would have tendrils in all the WWII titles. What I'm not getting is why the SF2 campaigns are months late and the BS patch seems to be tied into the WWII stuff.

We still have no ETA for any of the outstanding modern releases (BS & SF2 campaigns).

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3 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

Anyhow, a big THANK YOU for all the beta testers working hard to deliver those patches.

You are welcome.  An incredible amount of heart goes into the crafting of this game.

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15 minutes ago, Howler said:

We still have no ETA for any of the outstanding modern releases (BS & SF2 campaigns).

I do apologize for not giving you an ETA. It is certainly reasonable and understandable that you're asking for one. But, I posted short of giving an ETA for a couple of reasons. The biggest one is that until it is ready to be uploaded for release things can (and have) come to light and cause delays. It would be unfair to you try to slap a date or timeline that may not be met. I can say, as I did in my post, that it is in the final throes of creation.

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2 minutes ago, Howler said:

How does this impact CMBS? It shares more with SF2 than with any of the WWII titles.

I understand the German TOE would have tendrils in all the WWII titles. What I'm not getting is why the SF2 campaigns are months late and the BS patch seems to be tied into the WWII stuff.

We still have no ETA for any of the outstanding modern releases (BS & SF2 campaigns).

If you are asking about the patch, that is something only BF can address.  If you are asking about the campaigns, it is simply effort.  Campaigns are generally done by the testers.  Campaigns in general are always a lot of work requiring a lot of time, in this case it is additional work as in light of the changes from CMSF to CMSF2 some of the specific scenarios have to be completely revamped etc.  In short everyone is really busy. Really really busy. CMSF campaigns to do, patch testing, modules with their testing and scenario/campaign creation.  I know folks feel like they haven't seen new material in a bit.  Personally I think what will happen is we'll hit a sudden point where all this stuff gets released in pretty close time frames then folks will complain about which they should look at first.  when it rains....

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