Update on Engine 4 patches

[Aragorn2002]

23 hours ago, Erwin said:

You guys have made some very smart decisions over the years.  It's a tribute that BF is one of the very few hardcore wargame sim developers still in business.  And the others are doing much less ambitions/interesting/compelling products.  Have always internally calculated the value of each CM game family to be in the approx $300 range and with all the modules etc. available that's about right.

My concern would be that at the current rate of production it will take a very long time to get to the early war.  In the meanwhile, the play experience difference between a 1944 era game and a 1943 era game (ie: a one year difference) is not that appreciable. 

One of the great features of CM1 was the ability to fight Barbarossa one day and a 1945 scenario the next.  It kept things fresh.  Of course we all understand that while CM1 was unbelievably fabulous value for customers it is not a commercially viable biz model for BF.  The dream has been that one day we would have 1941 to 1945 products all available at the same time.  If the CM2 engine is still viable 5+ years from now maybe we'll get there.  But, it could take a lot longer than 5 years.

Currently, CM2 is effectively 2007 era graphics and despite all the wonderful engine improvements (to me at least) the system offers essentially the same gameplay experience.  Now that the CM2 system is 12 years old one has to wonder how many more years can it keep satisfying customers.  We all agree that graphics is not what motivates our interest in the CM system.  But, at the same time not many of us are playing classic games like "pong" or the 1990's simulations.  

Am certain that BF has given much thought as to what the next evolution (CM3) will be and when it may be developed.  So, there is nothing in what I have said that will be news to you guys.  Just wanted to congratulate you on the success of the system but also voice my concern that things have to evolve well before your customer base gets bored.

 

Well said. Personally I still love the graphics and I don't know any games that even come close to CM, let alone have better graphics. If CM2 would not exist, I wouldn't be playing other wargames, but would still be playing CM1.

CM is a rare breed and there's simply nothing to replace or succeed it. The current rate of production worries me though, but let's hope that's going to change this year. I'm 55 now and I hope to be able to play CM for another 55 years.

[Erwin]

3 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

hope to be able to play CM for another 55 years.

Pessimist.   100 is the new 65...

[Aragorn2002]

39 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Pessimist.   100 is the new 65...

Let's hope not pension wise....

[coachjohn]

Don’t put price ideas in Steve’s head!!!!! LOL

[Michael Emrys]

15 hours ago, JoMc67 said:

Now, that just wrong, Erwin...I still have my 'Pong', Atari, and Intellivision Console Games in the closet for Nostalgia reasons :-) 

And I still have a big stack of paper games from the '70s and '80s. I doubt that I will ever play any of them again, but they hold too many happy memories to let go of just yet. They are like an old dog that has become too crippled up to go hunting with, but he is still a loving companion that you won't have put down.

Michael

[sburke]

1 minute ago, Michael Emrys said:

And I still have a big stack of paper games from the '70s and '80s. I doubt that I will ever play any of them again, but they hold too many happy memories to let go of just yet. They are like an old dog that has become too crippled up to go hunting with, but he is still a loving companion that you won't have put down.

Michael

Until he gets rabies, then out comes the shotgun 

[Erwin]

13 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

And I still have a big stack of paper games from the '70s and '80s.

And 90's and even a few from the 2000's.  They still produce some wonderful innovative cardboard wargames - esp deling with uncon and insurgency subjects (eg: GMT Games).

Just waiting for Armageddon when the power goes out and I'll still have something to play (and my collection of over a K of games becomes more valuable than gold).  

[wadepm]

16 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

And I still have a big stack of paper games from the '70s and '80s. I doubt that I will ever play any of them again, but they hold too many happy memories to let go of just yet. They are like an old dog that has become too crippled up to go hunting with, but he is still a loving companion that you won't have put down.

Michael

Same.  They might not make the inevitable downsize to come though.  I will be sure to let you guys know if anyone is interested in taking them in...

[Sequoia]

Let me guess, Panzerblitz is one of them. IIRC that was Battlefront Steve's first wargame too and Eastfront is still his favorite subject.

[absolutmauser]

30 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Let me guess, Panzerblitz is one of them. IIRC that was Battlefront Steve's first wargame too and Eastfront is still his favorite subject.

That was a lot of people's first wargame! Even a young whipper-snapper like me who didn't get it until 1990 or so.

[slysniper]

28 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Let me guess, Panzerblitz is one of them. IIRC that was Battlefront Steve's first wargame too and Eastfront is still his favorite subject.

Well Panzerblitz was my second game, I selected Panzer leader first, heard it had improved on the rules. but it was not long before I had both.

But I am afraid squad Leader was the game that won me over, that was the start to a path of no return. Thus the reason I am here today. These games have replaced those early starts.

[absolutmauser]

8 minutes ago, slysniper said:

Well Panzerblitz was my second game, I selected Panzer leader first, heard it had improved on the rules. but it was not long before I had both.

But I am afraid squad Leader was the game that won me over, that was the start to a path of no return. Thus the reason I am here today. These games have replaced those early starts.

Same here for SL and ASL. I haven't put the platoon-level games on the board much since the squad-level ones took over.

[Michael Emrys]

51 minutes ago, Sequoia said:

Let me guess, Panzerblitz is one of them.

I think I may still have my copy. It was not my first however, that honor belongs to Stalingrad. And after that I got Battle of the Bulge and Afrika Korps. Then came a hiatus of several years followed then by Panzerblitz and it was off to the races with a mass of SPI games and more AH games. Pretty soon I discovered GDW whose games were purely intoxicating. And then some games by smaller publishers, foremost among them Yaquinto. I slacked off gradually on paper games during the '80s, although some of my favorites came out then, and pretty much gave up on them entirely during the '90s and haven't bought one since. I understand good games are still being brought out, but for various reasons I no longer feel up to playing them any more, so that is a torch I have passed.

Michael

[Ultradave]

Tactics II, Blitzkrieg and Afrika Corps were my first. Oh, and Bismark. When Panzerblitz came out it was a revelation.

Edited January 8, 2019 by Ultradave

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, Ultradave said:

When Panzerblitz came out it was a revelation.

Good observation.  Am sure that I have all the cardboard games mentioned above and many more esp the innovative ones.  If there were other humans around, (or if  could train cats) I would probably play the Columbia "block" games as the fog of war is so cleverly simulated and the mechanics/game rules are elegant, intuitive and easy to learn and remember.  GMT is the other biggish company that still produces a ton of xnt cardboard wargames every year.

[wadepm]

5 hours ago, slysniper said:

Well Panzerblitz was my second game, I selected Panzer leader first, heard it had improved on the rules. but it was not long before I had both.

But I am afraid squad Leader was the game that won me over, that was the start to a path of no return. Thus the reason I am here today. These games have replaced those early starts.

We are exact twins!

[wadepm]

5 hours ago, Sequoia said:

Let me guess, Panzerblitz is one of them. IIRC that was Battlefront Steve's first wargame too and Eastfront is still his favorite subject.

If it was his first love why don't we have early war East Front by now?  Hmmm?

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, slysniper said:

...I selected Panzer leader first, heard it had improved on the rules.

IMHO the best game by far in the PB-PL family of games was The Arab Israel War. It finally got the artillery mechanics right and introduced several innovative features.

Michael

[slysniper]

 

38 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

IMHO the best game by far in the PB-PL family of games was The Arab Israel War. It finally got the artillery mechanics right and introduced several innovative features.

Michael

it sure did, that is/ was somewhat the way I played the games after a certain point. Actually, I really had my own in house rules for them. but mostly adjusted rules from  The Arab Israel War.

Still have the games, once in a great while I pull one out and blow the dust off of it.

The Squad leader series, including much of the ASL stuff, sold them all, made more money from them than I ever paid for them. Loved them but they too were just dust collectors after a certain point.

[37mm]

On 1/6/2019 at 1:00 PM, Buzz said:

"Your most unhappy customers are your greatest source of learning."
Bill Gates

I've only been getting back into the "Combat Mission Community" for the past year or so but it's amazing how many times I've come across this "paid patches" or "BFC screw their customers" meme.

No matter how many times I point out an engine upgrade isn't a patch & give real-world examples of companies that drop their games after a few years the unhappy individual continues with their stubborn claim.

I like the engine upgrade system but its apparently got BFC a bad rep out there on the webs.

I have no idea what BFC are planning for CMx3 but I'd recommend an upgrade/DLC policy which tries to counter this (entirely undeserved) reputation.

Edited January 9, 2019 by 37mm

[A Canadian Cat]

11 hours ago, 37mm said:

I've only been getting back into the "Combat Mission Community" for the past year or so but it's amazing how many times I've come across this "paid patches" or "BFC screw their customers" meme.

No matter how many times I point out an engine upgrade isn't a patch & give real-world examples of companies that drop their games after a few years the unhappy individual continues with their stubborn claim.

I like the engine upgrade system but its apparently got BFC a bad rep out there on the webs.

An excellent example of unhappy customers that do not contribute to learning.

11 hours ago, 37mm said:

I have no idea what BFC are planning for CMx3 but I'd recommend an upgrade/DLC policy which tries to counter this (entirely undeserved) reputation.

I'll go further and say "no thanks" ignore those people and don't spent time trying to counter them with policy changes. Facts matter and their current policies and customer service are excellent - don't fix what's not broken.

Counter those dolts by pointing out they are wrong - as @37mm and others do. The thing is you can never change the minds of those ideologues but if you point out their mistakes and lay out the actual facts everyone else reading has a fair opportunity to learn the truth and make up their own minds.

[37mm]

3 minutes ago, IanL said:

... but if you point out their mistakes and lay out the actual facts everyone else reading has a fair opportunity to learn the truth and make up their own minds.

Unfortunately, in the real world, a bad rep can turn away potential customers far more efficiently than facts & truth can bring them on.

The first is simple, the latter takes time.

I'd advise (presumably Bill Gates would also advise) a pro-active response to this (again, totally undeserved) bad rep.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 minute ago, 37mm said:

Unfortunately, in the real world, a bad rep can turn away potential customers far more efficiently than facts & truth can bring them on.

The first is simple, the latter takes time.

I'd advise (presumably Bill Gates would also advise) a pro-active response to this (again, totally undeserved) bad rep.

Yeah I see your point. I'm just not sure what proactive moves re DLC would change that. I suppose I'm not seeing a path 'cause I'm not looking.

[slysniper]

I am not sure I understand where this bad rep is on the web.

From what browsing I do when it comes to gaming, I normally see some pretty good comments about BF games when I find them out there on other sites.

The only thing I notice is how non-existent they are as to some sites

(But that is because of their decision as to marketing their game more than anything else).

If there was any complaint that I have found consistent, it is that they do not drop the price of their games and dump them on the market like other companies.

We have plenty of threads why that is the case. (never will be a game company that does that)  so those looking for something for nothing will never find it here.

[DerKommissar]

13 hours ago, 37mm said:

I like the engine upgrade system but its apparently got BFC a bad rep out there on the webs.

This is the first time I've heard of this. All the youtubers I've seen play these games are quite impressed.

I'm a stingy dude, and can am easily turned off by crazy pay models (I'm looking at you, Ubisoft). In the simulation market, paid updates are a thing. BFC's stuff is fairly affordable compared to DCS (which has different content for different versions) or Steel Beasts (a USB stick!). IL-2 charges insane amount for planes and expansions -- even on sale!