The state of CMSF2

[sburke]

19 minutes ago, DzrtFox said:

Bye. 

Thanks for the offer but I've lost interest in another $50 game with new guys and new guns and little else different.  We can keep milking this 10-year old engine with a horribly clunky interface and terrible performance on newer hardware and blaming all the cool things we can't do on the engine that THEY CREATED.  I'm moving on...

so your complaint isn't really about 4.0 patch communication.but that you don't actually like the game, don't get the differences that various ToEs reflect, aren't interested in understanding and so on.  Okay.  The game isn't necessarily for everyone and if you aren't into the differences that ARE actually reflected in title to title then yeah I would have thought you'd have moved on years ago.  

My personal view is milk the f**k out of this engine!  I want so much additional in CMSF2 it ain't funny.  I know I won't get it, they have too much else going on but I am far from worn out on new material.  That is a strictly personal subjective opinion but one I know is shared by most of this forum.  Yeah there are complaints about updates, comms, status of the patch but all that is premised on wanting more.

[MarkEzra]

17 hours ago, sburke said:

 …And no having everyone join beta is NOT a good idea.  Hell having me on beta is probably not a good idea...

LOL.... Can I get a show of hands...?

[JoMac]

2 hours ago, sburke said:

My personal view is milk the f**k out of this engine!  I want so much additional in CMSF2 it ain't funny.  I know I won't get it, they have too much else going on but I am far from worn out on new material.  That is a strictly personal subjective opinion but one I know is shared by most of this forum.  Yeah there are complaints about updates, comms, status of the patch but all that is premised on wanting more.

I'm with you, sburke, regarding CMx2 in general...Just keep going with New Titles, Content, Patches, etc until if and when a Newer Game Engine comes out in Future. So, it simply works for me...Oh, and Milk it to Grows GI.Joe :-)

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, DzrtFox said:

Says the man with 26,000 posts on the forums...

The difference being that I am nearly 75 years old, have had something resembling a full life, and don't have my shorts in a twist because SF2 is a week late.

Michael

[sburke]

1 hour ago, Michael Emrys said:

The difference being that I am nearly 3,750 years old, have had something resembling a full life, and don't have my shorts in a twist because SF2 is a week late.

Michael

Corrected that for you

[Mord]

Methuselah Emrys.

 

Mord.

[Aragorn2002]

9 hours ago, DzrtFox said:

Says the man with 26,000 posts on the forums...

To me the most egregious thing about all of this is that there are many existing paying customers who had their Engine 4 upgrades borked by an issue that was CREATED BY BFC and that was pointed out what, a year-and-a-half ago?  No it's not necessarily "game breaking", but it can break games that you've already invested time in.  Either way, it's an issue that has been complained about multiple times, and after a long period of radio silence, Steve comes on and basically says "I know we can do better as far as communication goes" and yet here we are again a few months later with total radio silence.  Why everyone seems to think it's fine to ignore fixing something that is causing multiple paying customers issues  (and the updrade to Engine 4 has not been cheap for those who've been here since the beginning) in place of coming out with something new, I see that as a total lack of understanding of the wants and needs of your paying customers.

It's a nice gesture to send one of your forum members to post a video in your place, but I don't think that's what the people who are complaining are asking for.  Just a little common courtesy is all.  You've got guys loitering around here who are clearly showing interest in the product or they wouldn't be here.  Steve's responses are terse and show little respect for the people who keep them in business, if they come at all.

I've bought every single Combat Mission product from CBMO to CMBS, but I stopped at FB.  And I won't be buying anything else from them until they demonstrate in some way that they actually give two s*&ts about their customers.  

I am a software developer and the last company I worked for took the same cocky stance that "our product is superior so either shut up and like it/buy it or go find something else".  That worked out real well for those guys...   

 

Well said. +1. I'm afraid to think what all  this means for the release of the module for CMRT. I'm not interested in CMSF 2 (probably won't buy it, which is a first for me) and not even in the Italy module (will buy that one though).  With regard to the CMRT module I certainly don't expect it this year anymore and with that my interest in all this is practically gone. Better save your time and energy and wait for better times.

[JulianJ]

I do think this is a subject I have some expertise in: digital marketing.  Some of the work I do is for small niche software companies, not unlike BF.  All of them are  acutely conscious of marketing, even if they only have small budgets for it - they want to keep their existing customers and reach out to potential new ones.  We all know that new versions and patches can be delayed but that is a reason to ensure that customers are kept in the loop. It's not actually a cost, but has an ROI in increased sales and customer satisfaction.  BF seem to be shamefully ignorant or uncaring about this, and its Digital Marketing 101.  IMO it is a very poor business strategy just to rely on a hard core of ageing customers in a competitive marketplace, but obviously BF sees things differently,  [sigh].

[Lethaface]

Something I don't understand is how one thinks that second guessing BF.Cs business decisions is actually productive. Even when ones does have a certain relevant work experience.

Without knowing the numbers and other info's, how can you conclude that BFC is relying on a hard core of ageing customers in a competitive marketplace? Sure, we can see that BF.C isn't really expanding their marketing operations. That's a business decision. We know that it is a conscious one given the posts BF has made on this forum. 

I'm sure the advice/criticism is all good intentions. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. 

Second guessing is always easy. However only someone in the know of the reasoning behind BF.C's business decisions is in a position to really offer productive feedback. I for one don't think it would be a good idea for BF to cocreate their business strategy on this public forum. 

Concluding; i don't know whether I would make the same decisions as BF.C. But, that's not relevant. 

If people have a gripe with BF because they expect more communication, that's a fair point to make as a customer. But second guessing their business decisions is in my opinion not productive.
When and if someone comes to me at my work. Saying we have to do things differently, without knowing the reasoning behind what we are doing now... Lets just say I won't spend a lot of time on that.

[Dynaman216]

12 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

The difference being that I am nearly 75 years old, have had something resembling a full life, and don't have my shorts in a twist because SF2 is a week late.

Michael

It is not the week late of SF2 that worries me, it is the demo, that was supposed to be out much earlier, is not available either.

[Mord]

 

I've been holding off posting an official update because there's been an annoying detail and a few other things that needed to get nailed down first.  It's pretty much where I need it to be, so expect a post in a few days. -Steve

 

 

Mord.

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by Mord

[marklaker]

Yaaawwwnnn!  Visit any successful gaming software forum and you'll witness the same angst, playing out across countless threads and posts, ad nauseum.  Sorry, not bagging on anyone, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Emrys.  I love CM.  I have every game and module dating back to the original, but it's a miniscule part of my life and I have scant time to fret over the next release.  My life is far too full and complicated.  That, and I'm still having so much fun with the six CM games clogging my hard drive.....not to mention the hurricane bearing down on me with all the wrath of the gods!

Edited October 10, 2018 by marklaker

[Pixel]

wrath of the gods...hope you will stay safe and dry. Hurricanes are serious business.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Pixel

[sburke]

2 hours ago, marklaker said:

Yaaawwwnnn!  Visit any successful gaming software forum and you'll witness the same angst, playing out across countless threads and posts, ad nauseum.  Sorry, not bagging on anyone, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Emrys.  I love CM.  I have every game and module dating back to the original, but it's a miniscule part of my life and I have scant time to fret over the next release.  My life is far too full and complicated.  That, and I'm still having so much fun with the six CM games clogging my hard drive.....not to mention the hurricane bearing down on me with all the wrath of the gods!

Wait. Are you saying we are allowed to have a real life and worry about things that are actually important?!  WTF why didn’t someone say so or have a disclaimer on signing onto the forum?  Damn. 

stay safe man. You didn’t happen to unearth any mysterious ancient artifacts recently did you?  If so I’d start heading waaayyyy inland. 

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, marklaker said:

...I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Emrys.

I perceive that you are a man of excellent taste and judgement.

More seriously, watch out for hurricanes. I grew up not terribly far from where my namesake is making landfall and lived through a few growing up, but none I think as powerful or destructive as Michael.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

On 10/8/2018 at 9:32 AM, Lethaface said:

Something I don't understand is how one thinks that second guessing BF.Cs business decisions is actually productive. Even when ones does have a certain relevant work experience.

People have been doing this to us since 1999 and rarely has anybody been right about us going out of business or suffering for our abysmal hatred and disdain for our customers.  People have also been pointing out how idiotic we are at everything we do, because everybody knows only the most incompetent game companies last 20 years. 

It's a never ending source of amusement for all to enjoy!

On 10/8/2018 at 9:32 AM, Lethaface said:

Without knowing the numbers and other info's, how can you conclude that BFC is relying on a hard core of ageing customers in a competitive marketplace? Sure, we can see that BF.C isn't really expanding their marketing operations. That's a business decision. We know that it is a conscious one given the posts BF has made on this forum. 

Slight correction.  Having a limited audience isn't a business decision.  It is a reality that we have no control over.  Er, other than not making games that are so niche market that they have zero chance of gaining a foothold in the broader audience out there.  Could we do better marketing and PR than we do?  Sure!  But do we think it will result in a payback equal to the effort?  No.

On 10/8/2018 at 9:32 AM, Lethaface said:

Concluding; i don't know whether I would make the same decisions as BF.C. But, that's not relevant. 

  Everybody is welcome to try to do what we do and do it better.  That's a great thing about the free market.  We think continuing to do the things we do is the smart road to take.  We aren't exactly risk adverse (we couldn't do what we're doing if we were), but we aren't really interested in spending resources on things which experience tells us won't make a positive impact.

On 10/8/2018 at 9:32 AM, Lethaface said:

When and if someone comes to me at my work. Saying we have to do things differently, without knowing the reasoning behind what we are doing now... Lets just say I won't spend a lot of time on that.

Wisdom!

3 hours ago, marklaker said:

Yaaawwwnnn!  Visit any successful gaming software forum and you'll witness the same angst, playing out across countless threads and posts, ad nauseum. 

Even the ones with developer's blogs, daily posts from official minions, etc.  Doesn't matter if the company has a $1 budget for PR or a $10,0000 budget.  Which obviously has not escaped our attention.

3 hours ago, marklaker said:

Sorry, not bagging on anyone, but I have to wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Emrys.  I love CM.  I have every game and module dating back to the original, but it's a miniscule part of my life and I have scant time to fret over the next release.  My life is far too full and complicated.  That, and I'm still having so much fun with the six CM games clogging my hard drive.....not to mention the hurricane bearing down on me with all the wrath of the gods!

Good luck with the wrath!  Seems like it's going to be a very wild ride for the next few days.

Steve

[Sequoia]

Steve has time to post. Shock Force 2 must be really close!

[Battlefront.com]

On 10/7/2018 at 3:37 PM, DzrtFox said:

I am a software developer and the last company I worked for took the same cocky stance that "our product is superior so either shut up and like it/buy it or go find something else".  That worked out real well for those guys... 

According to many a customer complaining here on our Forums, we've had this problem of "arrogance" since CMBO.  As the story goes we don't listen, we don't care, we don't try to do anything.  If that were true we'd shut down this Forum, take 2 months of vacation every summer, and put 1/2 as much effort into whatever we release.  The truth is quite the opposite, which is why we're still here having this discussion.

Now, I agree that I do have the time to post updates about the state of CMSF2 more frequently.  However, each post would be a different way of saying this:

"Things are taking longer than we expected.  The game is looking great, but the final details are not in place to allow us to release.  When we are really sure we've got those details settled, then we will let you know and release soon after".

If you are bothered by the lack of communications from me, copy and paste the above into an email and send it to yourself every day.  Problem solved!

In all seriousness, this is why I don't post frequently about a game's development status.  Because it really does amount to the same message every time.  The details as to why the game isn't ready at a given point in time aren't the sort of things you guys would understand because you don't have context.  Heck, even we don't have context sometimes and we're making the dang'd thing.  So divulging more details does not give anybody any more sense of what's going on internally than having a generic statement.

We don't know when the game is ready to be ready until it is ready to be released.  Telling you this every few days seems to me pointless as it doesn't make you any better informed nor will it mollify those who are unhappy with how long it is taking.

That said, I've been wanting to make a post that *IS* meaningful and *WILL* do something other than say the same old thing.  But like so many other things, life is not that simple and I can't make the post yet.  If wishes were gold then we'd be retired by now

Steve

[markus544]

Copy that...roger

[Mord]

Reminds me of a story my x boss used to tell about a job he did an estimate for. He told the customer we could bring a a crane in to take the tree out. The customer than proceeded to argue with him about how nobody used cranes to take down trees. He argued and argued. No matter what he was told he refused to believe cranes were used in tree removal.

Here's a couple pics of us NOT using a crane to take down trees.

 

 

Moral of the story: Customers know your business better than you...because.

 

Mord.

Edited October 11, 2018 by Mord

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, Mord said:

Reminds me of a story my x boss used to tell about a job he did an estimate for. He told the customer we could bring a a crane in to take the tree out. The customer than proceeded to argue with him about how nobody used cranes to take down trees. He argued and argued. No matter what he was told he refused to believe cranes were used in tree removal.

Here's a couple pics of us NOT using a crane to take down trees.

Heh.  I've seen cranes doing this sort of work while visiting in Mass, but not in Maine.  Hell, around here even cherry pickers are viewed with some skepticism.  Something like it's not sporting.  Mind you, these are the same people that support baiting bear...

1 hour ago, Mord said:

Moral of the story: Customers know your business better than you...because.

Pretty much a truism in life, not just game makers and game customers.  Here is a video from a documentary on one of the most well known examples of this phenomena:

 

[MikeyD]

I wonder if pastry shops have this same problem with their websites. People posting complaints that all the shop ever makes is pastry, the pastry is too expensive and there are too many varieties that are all nothing but pastry. And it doesn't taste like that other shop's pastries. And besides, I never liked pastry anyway so I made a special point of coming here to tell you how much I dislike pastry and I hope your pastry shop burns to the ground.

[TankHunter]

4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Now, I agree that I do have the time to post updates about the state of CMSF2 more frequently.  However, each post would be a different way of saying this:

"Things are taking longer than we expected.  The game is looking great, but the final details are not in place to allow us to release.  When we are really sure we've got those details settled, then we will let you know and release soon after".

It will be worth the wait for the kinks to be ironed out.

[Mord]

54 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Hell, around here even cherry pickers are viewed with some skepticism. 

We only used them when it was financially feasible considering the operator ran about 150 an hour. Usually we'd line up a couple other jobs if the original wasn't gonna take all day. They are best used for situations like a tree is right up near a house, or there are a bunch of big take downs etc. This one day we did a massive dead oak in Gorham and had it down and cleaned up by noon, for five grand. It was so big that it took an hour just to drop the butt. We ended up doing two more jobs that day and made ten grand for 12 hours of work.

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Something like it's not sporting.

Ha! Reminds me of this crane job we did in Portland. This young climber shows up in the middle of every thing looking for work. He's kinda cocky. And he goes "I don't know why you'd need a crane to get that tree down? I could take it down just fine with some ropes."  And I was like "Yeah, so could we. But the difference with the crane is, you'd still be here tomorrow and we'll be done in five hours."  LOL. Wisdom is earned...

 

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Here is a video from a documentary on one of the most well known examples of this phenomena:

Yeah, it's even worse when a low level bureaucrat is involved!

Back in 94-5ish there was this mini-Hitler in the town office in Gray, who refused to allow us to take a dead pine down for this guy because he lived on a lake. The thing was MASSIVE, right up near his house, and within a year or two of destroying his home or killing someone. Thing is, she never even left her office to go look at the tree. Had absolutely no clue how dangerous that beast was. Made the decision for that dude's fate from her desk. We ended up doing it anyway and never heard a word about it. That's how important it was we NOT do it.

 

Mord.

[Sakai007]

I bet you guys were busy after that storm last October, wind comes in from a slightly different direction and all of a sudden everyone had trees down in their yard. Just a month ago we had a 10 MINUTE storm in Brunswick, knocked power out for the entire day for a quarter of Cumberland County and most of Sagadahoc, Lincoln, and Knox.