The state of CMSF2

[Battlefront.com]

The only time we can give a reliable shipping date is after the game is done and before it's been released.  That's it.  And even then sometimes unexpected problems come up.  So I guess the only reliable date I can give is just after I've uploaded everything to the servers and just before I've posted it's available.

So again, I can either post rough timeframes which may/may not be met, or I can post nothing at all until the game is done.  Those are the two options.  There is no third option where I acquire magical powers to see into the future and NOT use those powers to win the lottery and say goodbye to wargaming forever.  So be thankful there is no third option

Steve

 

[Battlefront.com]

23 hours ago, schwerpunktgrenadier said:

Perhaps a development diary, when things get interesting, might be something to consider rather than predictions of a release date.

Meant to respond to this one specifically.

This gets suggested very often, but it does nothing to help with expectations of delivery timeframes.  Because customers have no context in which to judge progress, therefore they still don't know how to set their own expectations.  Sometimes weeks go by without much to say that is interesting.  And if I don't post for a couple of weeks then people will think we're either goofing off or going out of business.  If I post meaningless updates, like "today we finally go the helmet artwork working after the 4th attempt", people might think that we spend all of our time doing little stuff (er, that's actually not totally inaccurate!) or the game is mostly done because we're not talking about big stuff.

Journals take a lot of time.  It takes far less time to have a once a year argument with people who think it's possible to magically predict when a game might be ready for sale than it does to keep a journal.  Now that argument has concluded, I'm back to work

Steve

 

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

Journals take a lot of time. 

And everything seems to take longer than you expect. My post on the other thread about this is relevant and perhaps some will find the reference interesting:

 

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

It takes far less time to have a once a year argument with people who think it's possible to magically predict when a game might be ready for sale than it does to keep a journal.  Now that argument has concluded, I'm back to work

LOL

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, sburke said:

Let’s just stop, this isn’t the way we should be interacting and it will lead to an admonishment from Steve which frankly is time he could be spending on the store.  

Good advice. I'll recommend again what I have several time - use the ignore list. If asinine comments from person X drive you nuts then place them on your ignore list and you will not have to read them. One person with posts on this page is on mine and I am again reminded that it was the right call.

Personally I am a fan of hell banning (https://blog.codinghorror.com/suspension-ban-or-hellban/) but Steve was not interested the last time I pitched it to him. But if you ignore people that troll you then you can create a smaller less perfect version for yourself.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Battlefront.com said:

The only time we can give a reliable shipping date is after the game is done and before it's been released.  That's it.  And even then sometimes unexpected problems come up.  So I guess the only reliable date I can give is just after I've uploaded everything to the servers and just before I've posted it's available.

Oh, oh I have an idea: get it all lined up, uploaded etc and then just sit on it for three weeks. Then you can make your grand prediction that it will be out by the end of month X and beat it every time.

[BletchleyGeek]

Before unfollowing this thread, so I don't get these back and forths into my inbox, let me quote this bit I found on the top news item in the website

The obvious question out there is "when will CMSF2 ship?" We're aiming for no later than the end of September. However, we'll soon release a demo with 4 battles and a training mission. That should help keep you occupied for a while.

"No later than end of September" it's pretty clear to me and English isn't my first language. And it is announcing that peeps will be getting a demo before launch too.

How hard was to point out this to Aragorn guys? 

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

If I post meaningless updates, like "today we finally go the helmet artwork working after the 4th attempt", people might think that we spend all of our time doing little stuff (er, that's actually not totally inaccurate!) or the game is mostly done because we're not talking about big stuff.

Some in the industry don't do it, just like you - the Ukranian fellows in Kharkov for instance, some do it very well imo - Jason Williams at 777, and others do it very badly - like the Star Citizen guys who were showing their experiments on procedurally animated fried eggs meant to be a decorative prop in an in-game canteen

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by BletchleyGeek

[General Jack Ripper]

10 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

After all this time it would be nice to see some dates you actually can deliver upon and setting up expectations that can be met.

What?! BLASPHEMY!!

[Battlefront.com]

8 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Before unfollowing this thread, so I don't get these back and forths into my inbox, let me quote this bit I found on the top news item in the website

The obvious question out there is "when will CMSF2 ship?" We're aiming for no later than the end of September. However, we'll soon release a demo with 4 battles and a training mission. That should help keep you occupied for a while.

"No later than end of September" it's pretty clear to me and English isn't my first language. And it is announcing that peeps will be getting a demo before launch too.

How hard was to point out this to Aragorn guys? 

Because you obviously don't understand the argument going on here.  It isn't about a specific announcement in a perfect vacuum.  Plus, watch what happens if we don't make the September timeframe

8 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Some in the industry don't do it, just like you - the Ukranian fellows in Kharkov for instance, some do it very well imo - Jason Williams at 777, and others do it very badly - like the Star Citizen guys who were showing their experiments on procedurally animated fried eggs meant to be a decorative prop in an in-game canteen

It's a minefield.  I doubt the guys who "do it very well" roll out of bed, make a 5 minute post, then get on making games for the rest of the day.  I doubt the guys who "do it very badly" do either. 25 years of game development/publishing experience informs my decision making.  A development journal is not a good fit for what we do and who our audience is.

Steve

[Aragorn2002]

3 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

Because you obviously don't understand the argument going on here.  It isn't about a specific announcement in a perfect vacuum.  Plus, watch what happens if we don't make the September timeframe

It's a minefield.  I doubt the guys who "do it very well" roll out of bed, make a 5 minute post, then get on making games for the rest of the day.  I doubt the guys who "do it very badly" do either. 25 years of game development/publishing experience informs my decision making.  A development journal is not a good fit for what we do and who our audience is.

Steve

 

What worries me most is that you don't seem to have a clue. You give a release date for CMSF 2 and at the same time tell us it's probably useless. Although that seems to be perfectly normal and acceptable for some people here, it also annoys the hell out of me and of a lot of other people. The 'frankly my dear, i don't give a damn'-attitude doesn't help either. Advising customers to come back in a year or so is just leaving me speechless. Perhaps CMSF 2 will make it this year. Perhaps. The other two games certainly won't. I don't expect my favorite module (CMRT) before autumn 2019.

I'm following BletchlyGeek's advise. I'm unfollowing this thread, before I'm losing my temper.

[BletchleyGeek]

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Because you obviously don't understand the argument going on here.  It isn't about a specific announcement in a perfect vacuum.  Plus, watch what happens if we don't make the September timeframe

These forums are an extension of your business - or so I consider them - and indeed, you set the rules here for what is civilised discussion and what's not.

Youwere underpromising weren't you?

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I doubt the guys who "do it very well" roll out of bed, make a 5 minute post, then get on making games for the rest of the day.  I doubt the guys who "do it very badly" do either.

Nothing of value costs nothing. Of course, there as many possible appraisals of value of a thing as possible punters interested in buying it

Have a good weekend, Steve.

[DesertFox]

17 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

…, some do it very well imo - Jason Williams at 777, and others do it very badly -....

 

Yes, very good, 1CGS/777 is a perfect example how good and transparent information given to the community could work out for the company. And it has an additional effect to generate extra marketing bandwidth done by community members. There are numerous YouTube channels which pick up the news and there are blogs which spread the word, like this outstanding one by Shamrockonefive here https://stormbirds.blog/.

All of this positive marketing and undoubtedly positive image buildup starts with a weekly developer diary which produces facts about development progression instead of leaving vast open spaces open to wild speculation.

Now ask yourselves why neither YouTube channels nor blogs exist which report in a positive way about progression in the CM-world?

Edited August 11, 2018 by DesertFox

[Michael Emrys]

6 hours ago, BletchleyGeek said:

Nothing of value costs nothing.

Contrary wise, I have found the adage "The best things in life are free" to be very true a great deal of the time, so it all depends...

Michael

[Aragorn2002]

34 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said:

Contrary wise, I have found the adage "The best things in life are free" to be very true a great deal of the time, so it all depends...

Michael

Sigh....

[AttorneyAtWar]

Nvm.

Edited August 11, 2018 by Raptorx7

[JoMac]

Guys...Can we all learn to get along here...Ok ?

Oh, and leave the useless Ranting & Raving up to me :-)

Edited August 11, 2018 by JoMc67

[Wicky]

*metaphor alert* Think of each desirable CM addition as a baby (best blank out how each one is conveived esp. as a brain a jar in some undisclosed location is involved  ) 

How accurate are 'due dates'?

Estimating delivery

German obstetrician Franz Karl Naegele (1778-1851) suggested taking the first day of the expectant mother's last period, adding one year, subtracting three months, and adding seven days

This can vary by up to three days from the usual system used today - adding 280 days (or 40 weeks) to the first day of the last period

In France it is standard to add two weeks and nine months to the first day of the last period - or a total of 41 weeks - explains Carrieanne Le Bras at the French Mamma website - though this date may be revised in the light of ultrasound tests

But according to Roshni Patel, an obstetrician at the Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, French doctors "just manage expectations better" - while doctors in the UK or US wait up to two weeks after an estimated delivery date before inducing birth, French doctors give women an extra week to start with, then induce more quickly

Edited August 11, 2018 by Wicky

[Wicky]

TEST

Quote

...data from the Perinatal Institute, a non-profit organisation, shows that an estimated date of delivery is rarely accurate - in fact, a baby is born on its predicted due date just ??% of the time.

perspective

[MikeyD]

I have an obsessive compulsive friend who many years ago found himself at the same table with the editor of 'Consume Reports' magazine. My friend proceeded to spend the entire dinner lecturing the editor on exactly what's wrong with the magazine and exactly how they should fix it. I'm sure the magazine editor appreciated the constructive criticism of a pimply nineteen year old with black horn-rim glasses and rock band T-shirt.

[Wicky]

Heck even NASA can't launch a rocket on time - what's the world coming to.

[Combatintman]

3 hours ago, Wicky said:

Heck even NASA can't launch a rocket on time - what's the world coming to.

The screenshot in your link is pretty average as well 

[Aragorn2002]

On 8/10/2018 at 6:04 PM, Combatintman said:

If it isn't complicated then why don't you understand it?

Because your overcomplicate things, just to sound clever or to show loyalty. It simply comes down to a company that keeps on giving unreliable release dates and at the same time tries to convince everybody that's perfectly normal. And those that question this vague behaviour are getting flak or smart ass remarks. I'm as loyal to BF as the next guy, but I think we have shown enough patience.

Even now, the year that things are supposed to happen, the 'fog of release' hasn't lifted. Yes, there's a statement that one game will be shipped in September. But that statement is made by someone from who everybody (including Steve himself) has accepted that his release dates are always too optimistic. Even the possibility that all three games will be released at more or less the same time has been named. Fat chance. Sure, things can be delayed, we all understand that. But when it happens over and over again, something is really wrong with your way of planning.

Give us clear dates (the month will suffice) and stick to it. And next time concentrate on one game at the time.

 

[sburke]

15 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Give us clear dates (the month will suffice) and stick to it. And next time concentrate on one game at the time.

First off nice try, but we don't get to dictate.  Why?  Because the above statement for example reflects an assumption- patently false that only one game can be worked on at a time.  There is a division of labor which means if Charles is waiting on something from someone else he should do nothing basically wasting time he could spend on another title.  That is something you should understand if you are going to make suggestions and if you don't understand it you should refrain.

[Pinetree]

Man, some people get worked up over the smallest of things. BFC will announce a date; check in on that date, if the game's out, buy it; If it's not, check in again on the revised date.  In the meantime do something else. Life goes on.

[Aragorn2002]

You are both right actually. I should refrain and check in on a later date. My posts aren't helpful at all and don't change a thing. I will do everybody a favor and stop posting until the end of the year.

[schwerpunktgrenadier]

Quote

Meant to respond to this one specifically.

This gets suggested very often, but it does nothing to help with expectations of delivery timeframes.  Because customers have no context in which to judge progress, therefore they still don't know how to set their own expectations.  Sometimes weeks go by without much to say that is interesting.  And if I don't post for a couple of weeks then people will think we're either goofing off or going out of business.  If I post meaningless updates, like "today we finally go the helmet artwork working after the 4th attempt", people might think that we spend all of our time doing little stuff (er, that's actually not totally inaccurate!) or the game is mostly done because we're not talking about big stuff.

Journals take a lot of time.  It takes far less time to have a once a year argument with people who think it's possible to magically predict when a game might be ready for sale than it does to keep a journal.  Now that argument has concluded, I'm back to work 

Steve

Yeah, all good points. Thanks for the reply.