mjkerner Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 No need to insult the man, Mannschaft. He gave you an honest answer with no sarcasm or other effrontery. Come back next year (personally, I’d come back sooner) and you’ll have new, enjoyable products to buy. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schwerpunktgrenadier Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Quote I definitely appreciate customers want to be informed about when things are/aren't happening. We do like you to be informed, unfortunately after 20 years of doing this it doesn't get any easier to make predictions. Perhaps a development diary, when things get interesting, might be something to consider rather than predictions of a release date. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 9, 2018 Author Share Posted August 9, 2018 21 hours ago, Mannschaft said: You know what? You're right. I am terribly sorry I inconvenienced you and your company in my excitement to exchange paper for a digital product. I'll check back in a year and maybe there'll actually be something to buy on here that I don't already own. I'll go ahead and pester some other unfortunate company with my wallet. Thanks. Huh? This makes no sense. You're angry with me because I don't want to string you guys along with dates pulled out of my backside, then make up more BS dates that I am not confident we can deliver upon just to appease demands for dates? Or are you angry with me because I don't have magical powers? Seriously, this is just another example of the futility of release dates. If I post wrong ones we get skewered for not delivering on expectations those dates set. If I post no dates we get skewered for not doing things which set expectations which we aren't sure we can meet. Damned if we do, damned if we don't is a really unfair position to be in, but we accept that is the way things work. Given that we have to make a choice between being damned for setting up expectations that aren't met or damned for not setting up expectations, I think the right choice is the latter. If someone wants to lay out a rational case for doing things differently, I'm all ears. Steve P.S. one of the beautiful things about being an independent, self publishing game developer is we don't have any problem with someone tuning out for a year and then coming back to see what we have. We don't have a 60 day window to make or break our future like other game companies. So if people want to check back with us in a year because that works best for that person, it works fine for us too. No pressure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Steve you just got the man shaft. You are just supposed to take it. Skewered is not exactly the right word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Underpromising and overdelivering is what works best in my experience, in most life endeavours but politics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said: Underpromising and overdelivering is what works best in my experience, in most life endeavours but politics. It's never been tried in politics... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 Better right than soon.....Plus my pocket-money's spent for this month (Armory Pantsir-S & assorted 60s & 70s tanks) and next (OKB 2A3 Kondensator) already! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 7 minutes ago, wadepm said: It's never been tried in politics... Because if you underpromise it will be hard to be elected... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadepm Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 40 minutes ago, BletchleyGeek said: Because if you underpromise it will be hard to be elected... We've got a Catch-22 right there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted August 10, 2018 Author Share Posted August 10, 2018 44 minutes ago, wadepm said: We've got a Catch-22 right there. Oh great, now I've got to go watch that movie again. Haven't seen it in a bunch of years. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 That's some catch that Catch 22. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 11 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Oh great, now I've got to go watch that movie again. Haven't seen it in a bunch of years. Steve The book is a good read too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 14 hours ago, Battlefront.com said: Huh? This makes no sense. You're angry with me because I don't want to string you guys along with dates pulled out of my backside, then make up more BS dates that I am not confident we can deliver upon just to appease demands for dates? Or are you angry with me because I don't have magical powers? Seriously, this is just another example of the futility of release dates. If I post wrong ones we get skewered for not delivering on expectations those dates set. If I post no dates we get skewered for not doing things which set expectations which we aren't sure we can meet. Damned if we do, damned if we don't is a really unfair position to be in, but we accept that is the way things work. Given that we have to make a choice between being damned for setting up expectations that aren't met or damned for not setting up expectations, I think the right choice is the latter. If someone wants to lay out a rational case for doing things differently, I'm all ears. Steve P.S. one of the beautiful things about being an independent, self publishing game developer is we don't have any problem with someone tuning out for a year and then coming back to see what we have. We don't have a 60 day window to make or break our future like other game companies. So if people want to check back with us in a year because that works best for that person, it works fine for us too. No pressure. After all this time it would be nice to see some dates you actually can deliver upon and setting up expectations that can be met. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Aragorn2002 said: After all this time it would be nice to see some dates you actually can deliver upon and setting up expectations that can be met. Heh. Being in telecom IT for 30 + years I challenge anyone to be good at that. The way I handle my personal frustration with BF products always missing dates is knowing I have nothing dependent on when they deliver, it is just a past time (just? ). Whatever the timing I do know I am getting a damn good product I can’t always say that about stuff I buy. Steve could have just said CMSF2 will be out in July 2019. He’ll beat that date. Would you be happier? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper117 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Lots of gnashing of teeth and angst over nothing at all... Not sure of the age group of some of the posters, but surely, grown men can't get that het up over a computer game?... Not sure how they cope when real life problems that matter surface... still, it's a funny old world isn't it 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markus544 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 Hey Steve anyone who has been around this forum as long as most of us know how much work goes into these one of kind games...In my opinion the length of time your company has been around speaks for it's self. As for me I've spent my game money on my GD ice machine in my frig....That 300.00 large. If have to wait than that's the way it goes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said: After all this time it would be nice to see some dates you actually can deliver upon and setting up expectations that can be met. Kind of proves Steve's oft made point about not giving out dates ... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Combatintman said: Kind of proves Steve's oft made point about not giving out dates ... Does it? Please explain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 43 minutes ago, Trooper117 said: Lots of gnashing of teeth and angst over nothing at all... Not sure of the age group of some of the posters, but surely, grown men can't get that het up over a computer game?... Not sure how they cope when real life problems that matter surface... still, it's a funny old world isn't it I'm not sure what makes me more nautious. The lack of any reliable dates or posts like yours. Please spare me your childish 'wisdom'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: Does it? Please explain. No date announced - no date to deliver on. I'll let you work out the second and third order effects. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aragorn2002 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 4 minutes ago, Combatintman said: No date announced - no date to deliver on. I'll let you work out the second and third order effects. There are none, because it isn't that complicated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: There are none, because it isn't that complicated. If it isn't complicated then why don't you understand it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper117 Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 45 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said: I'm not sure what makes me more nautious. The lack of any reliable dates or posts like yours. Please spare me your childish 'wisdom'. I'd like to spare you lot's of things... unfortunately they would make you rather sick as well. Never mind, someone will empty your potty soon and it will be time for bed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 This isn’t productive. I understand some folks would really like solid dates, hell so would I. However in almost 20 years we should learn by now that is t gonna happen unless Steve decides to arbitrarily set overly long lead times which would simply set people off in a different direction. Sometimes Steve sets a general target. CMSF2 as a case in point. The scope of the project was to”just” get CMSF2 into the 4.0 engine If they had strictly adhered to that he *might* hVe kept to the timeline. Other things intruded like the website, some summer vacation time etc. Howevdr fortunately for us BF did not stick to that strictly limited scope. They added on board mortars, redid the TOEs and updated items etc etc so the end result is the date slipped but we end up with a better product. Arguing over that now is just pointless. First off you’ll likely not convince someone who likes more communications and better timelines that they should just give up on that. It just isn’t how they are wired. They may theoretically understand the point, but that isn’t gonna stop them from wanting. On th other hand those who want have to understand that if the scope changes, which we know it did, then the timing is gonna shift. The thing is the items added came in incrementally so it isn’t like Steve would have been able to reset expectations at just one point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 10, 2018 Share Posted August 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Trooper117 said: I'd like to spare you lot's of things... unfortunately they would make you rather sick as well. Never mind, someone will empty your potty soon and it will be time for bed. Let’s just stop, this isn’t the way we should be interacting and it will lead to an admonishment from Steve which frankly is time he could be spending on the store. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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