Flamethrowers in Multi. Who's a pro?

[Bozilas]

Do any of you esteemed colleagues use flamethrowers (infantry units) effectively in multiplayer fights?  

[Cobetco]

no, they are pretty trashy for everything. cool to have in the game, but useless to have since CM's scope doesn't involve the type of fortifications that would make them useful.

even flame tanks are a let down with maybe the exception of the Crocodile. 

[StieliAlpha]

I would not buy them in a QB and I can’t say that I use them effectively, but flamethrowers are quite devastating against Infantry (if they get a shot fired).

So, my “plan” is usually: Hide them near a likely enemy approach and hope, that some soft target comes close and the flamethrower lives long enough to fire once.

[Sublime]

You nailed it.  If its an infantry flame team you can really do two things -

1. Use them to destroy or route pinned enemy troops.  This only works really during the "mopping up" phase of battles and really doesnt seem to work especially better than bullets and explosives.

2. Use them in ambush. This is really difficult because of the 30m range. Basically its the same as trying to ambush with a Pzfaust 30 except the team isnt half as mobile.  Im just using the faust as an example,  flame teams have heavy equipment and draw fire like mad.

That said I have had some great Aha moments with them just like using mines etc. 3 out of 5 times my mines do minimal if any damage but sometimes..

Just like Id place mines outside buildings on the door tile and especially out the back door I do the same with flame teams. So the first row of buildings into a town will have light infantry elements to spot and harass the enemy the huge bulk will be in the 2nd row of buildings or outside larger firsy row buildings. This is where you can destroy a platoon attack - have your team sitting on the back steps of a building to shoot flame at enemy infantry entering the other side.

The true success of the weapon in this role isnt that itll kill 10 men, you.ll be lucky with 8 enemy casualties, but that immediate platoon those troops are part of is gonna have lower morale than bad tempered impoverished kids on Christmas

 

 

edit: This isnt your older brothers flamethrowers from Close Combat 2 and 3 - the ambush team of doom with fire streaking out causing catastrophic tank explosions.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Sublime

[Bozilas]

On 5/20/2018 at 7:47 AM, Sublime said:

You nailed it.  If its an infantry flame team you can really do two things -

1. Use them to destroy or route pinned enemy troops.  This only works really during the "mopping up" phase of battles and really doesnt seem to work especially better than bullets and explosives.

2. Use them in ambush. This is really difficult because of the 30m range. Basically its the same as trying to ambush with a Pzfaust 30 except the team isnt half as mobile.  Im just using the faust as an example,  flame teams have heavy equipment and draw fire like mad.

That said I have had some great Aha moments with them just like using mines etc. 3 out of 5 times my mines do minimal if any damage but sometimes..

Just like Id place mines outside buildings on the door tile and especially out the back door I do the same with flame teams. So the first row of buildings into a town will have light infantry elements to spot and harass the enemy the huge bulk will be in the 2nd row of buildings or outside larger firsy row buildings. This is where you can destroy a platoon attack - have your team sitting on the back steps of a building to shoot flame at enemy infantry entering the other side.

The true success of the weapon in this role isnt that itll kill 10 men, you.ll be lucky with 8 enemy casualties, but that immediate platoon those troops are part of is gonna have lower morale than bad tempered impoverished kids on Christmas

 

 

edit: This isnt your older brothers flamethrowers from Close Combat 2 and 3 - the ambush team of doom with fire streaking out causing catastrophic tank explosions.

Awesome Close Combat reference, and you all confirmed all of my suspicions.... but I had NOT thought of them as a defensive unit.. but something to consider and put in my tactical ball-bag. (The testicles reference is free.  No charge.)

[Sublime]

Offensively Ive found theyre more trouble than theyre worth.  If I REALLY want a flame unit for offense Ill take a flame tank.

Otherwise theyre cumbersome units and dont do the job as well as direct HE from tanks, mortars,  arty prep and small arms fire.

Especially offensively people rush too much and dont utilize the tools at hand.

A great example is the Sherman tanks or any tanks coax and other mgs ( though the sherman with the .50 really shines )

IRL yes you wouldnt necesarrily want to burn through say 3k or 5k of bullets in a couple hours. However because of the nature of the game what happens after the immediate battle isnt as important, especially ammo wise.  So what Im getting at is basically you can have a couple tanks target light on something and spend a good 10 minutes just spraying it with machine gun fire.  Also factor in the game doesnt do friendly fire from rifle or small arms bullets - so basically you just keep those tank MGs spraying at whatever you want to suppress and or kill right up until your men storm said building.

Frankly at the end of the day theyre a cool addition and were there but arent worth it at all. Unlike say sharpshooter teams where you find a good spot and let them work FT teams are micromanagement intensive. You habe to be sure theyre in that 32m firing range. You have to babysit them, the TacAi prioritizes shooting at them..(just like IRL they were bullet magnets, or like when reading about the PTO and banxai charges US troops always said everyone basically eviscerated anyone running with a katana first because the psychological fear of the weapon) 

 

 

Also O/T but I thought Id ask - a couple of years ago I noticed tanks that hit AT mines going slow wouldnt even be immobilized - theyd just take track damage. I never heard if this was resolved?

[MG TOW]

Here's a multiplayer example where victory was snatched away from the Germans by a lone flamethrower guy. Doesn't happen often, but every once in a while...

 

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

7 hours ago, Sublime said:

Also factor in the game doesnt do friendly fire from rifle or small arms bullets

It does actually. If your tank doesn't spot the friendly infantry.

[Oliver_88]

14 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

It does actually. If your tank doesn't spot the friendly infantry.

Wah?

I've noticed what seemed to be my soldiers maybe becoming suppressed from an tanks coaxial. But is what you say true also? How have you figured that out? Should that be the case it's an good argument for using iron mode then.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Oliver_88

[Sublime]

Yeah Ive never seen friendly units killed by just bullets. Blue on blue suppression some sure but.... casualties? Hmm.  Ill take your word for it though but this seems almost certainly something that was changed? (Maybe 4.0?)

[A Canadian Cat]

Friendly fire is possible with .50 cal and up. So any Tank HE, 20mm AA or some tanks' .50cal anything lower than that only causes some suppression but not friendly casulties.

[Oliver_88]

So no its not possible to cause friendly casualties with small arms bullets when unspotted.

Though did not realise (or just plain forgot) that 50's were not classed as such and sat amongst the 2 pounders and etc.

Just been sat watching three Churchill tanks using their Besa's at an unseen British section with no effect (but suppression) for the past half an hour to test this ha. Back to go try again with some Achilles  White Scout Cars instead.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Oliver_88

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, Oliver_88 said:

Wah?

I've noticed what seemed to be my soldiers maybe becoming suppressed from an tanks coaxial. But is what you say true also? How have you figured that out? Should that be the case it's an good argument for using iron mode then.

Happened on all difficulty levels in version 3.12, but apparently not in CMFB. Have just tested that out.

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Friendly fire is possible with .50 cal and up. So any Tank HE, 20mm AA or some tanks' .50cal anything lower than that only causes some suppression but not friendly casulties.

Did you forget we talked about this before?

56 minutes ago, Oliver_88 said:

So no its not possible to cause friendly casualties with small arms bullets when unspotted.

Though did not realise (or just plain forgot) that 50's were not classed as such and sat amongst the 2 pounders and etc.

Just been sat watching three Churchill tanks using their Besa's at an unseen British section with no effect (but suppression) for the past half an hour to test this ha. Back to go try again with some Achilles  White Scout Cars instead.

I did not test this out in version 4.0 just tested this in CMFB 4.0, and it doesn't happen. But in 3.12 friendly rifles and light machineguns could definitely cause friendly casualties. More details in this old post:

(in CMFB at least, this doesn't work any more. And I guess since everyone playing version 4.0 now has the same code base, that means this feature was removed from the game for some reason).

Edited May 24, 2018 by Bulletpoint
Updated info

[Pelican Pal]

Flamethrowers are generally better weapons in real-time play. Their short range and tac-ai priority make them very vulnerable so they need to have a lot of personal initiative allowed for them. The 60 second turns generally don't allow for them to have that sort of initiative needed for success. When playing real-time I've been able to more easily get them to operate with support of friendly troops in a cohesive way that allows for success.

Most often a platoon moves up to relatively close range to the enemy with the flamethrower team and they begin to suppress enemies with fire and 5-10 seconds later I have the flamer team FAST to within the 30 meter range and quickly target enemy positions in order. Firing a quick burst of flame at each one, before having the flame team FAST to cover. In real-time this is relatively easy and can be done in a matter of 30 seconds, give or take. However, doing this in turn-based is almost impossible as it requires a bunch of very specific move, pause, and target orders that you can't really reliably get to work.

Generally I prefer turn-based but in situations like these where you are simulating the decision making of small groups of men acting independently (a small flamethrower team in this instance) real-time does a much better job of giving you a realistic result.

[A Canadian Cat]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Did you forget we talked about this before?

I totally did forget that. Oops

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

just tested this in CMFB 4.0, and it doesn't happen. But in 3.12 friendly rifles and light machineguns could definitely cause friendly casualties. More details in this old post:

So, I screwed up in reverse and ended up correct

[Bulletpoint]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

I totally did forget that. Oops

So, I screwed up in reverse and ended up correct

Haha yes, just my luck  Whenever I'm right about the world, it seems to move on...

[General Jack Ripper]

On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:52 PM, Bozilas said:

Do any of you esteemed colleagues use flamethrowers (infantry units) effectively in multiplayer fights?  

At night, in low visibility, I did manage an ambush with a flame team that caused about seven casualties in about two seconds.

The flame team did not survive the encounter.

Honestly, I think the largest effect it has the morale effect on the enemy player. If they expect to face flame teams, they're looking for a threat where one may not exist. 

[Sublime]

just like mines..