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Ivanov

Bundeswehr trains for a new deployment in the Baltics

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5 minutes ago, Ivanov said:

I see that the functional analphabetism is alive and well. Where did I say that German army is in a perfect shape?

Its funny, I read my post a couple times and it seems I didn't mention you calling the German Army perfect once, so you know, pot meet kettle and all.

Anyways, what you did do was stick your fingers in your ears and blatantly assert that contrary to all evidence that the German Army isn't suffering from things like budgetary issues and making hilarious comments like this:

 

Quote

 Overall Bundeswehr is not in a great shape, but for sure they able able to deploy a well trained company.

 

As if this isn't a scathing condemnation of the German Army in of itself. 

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3 minutes ago, AtheistDane said:

It wouldn't surprise me if part of the German Military's budget is being diverted to pay for the millions of unproductive Third World immigrants that Angela Merkel and the other open-borders lunatics in Germany have imported over the last two decades. 
 

Mhm, ok.

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3 minutes ago, AtheistDane said:

It wouldn't surprise me if part of the German Military's budget is being diverted to pay for the millions of unproductive Third World immigrants that Angela Merkel and the other open-borders lunatics in Germany have imported over the last two decades. 
 

Lmao this is a woke derailment. Partisans in WWII didn't derail things this effectively. 

God Bless

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3 minutes ago, sid_burn said:

Anyways, what you did do was stick your fingers in your ears and blatantly assert that contrary to all evidence that the German Army isn't suffering from things like budgetary issues and making hilarious comments like this:

Nope. I think you misinterpreted my comments. But let's just leave like that, unless you have something constructive to add on the subject of the discussion. 

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1 minute ago, Ivanov said:

Nope. I think you misinterpreted my comments. But let's just leave like that, unless you have something constructive to add on the subject of the discussion. 

I mean @AtheistDane has shown us to both be wrong, so I agree, the discussion is pointless. 

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38 minutes ago, Ivanov said:

Nope. I was just disagreeing with judging BW state based on the look of the soldiers from the video. I've been also trying to turn this exchange into more constructive discussion about the real reasons, why German army has become what it is today. So thank you for the recent comments of @panzersaurkrautwerfer @DerKommissar @Rinaldi and @Saint_Fuller

Then you should have quoted Erwin.

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12 minutes ago, Ivanov said:

Nope. I was just disagreeing with judging BW state based on the look of the soldiers from the video. I've been also trying to turn this exchange into more constructive discussion about the real reasons, why German army has become what it is today. So thank you for the recent comments of @panzersaurkrautwerfer @DerKommissar @Rinaldi and @Saint_Fuller

That's kind of the direction I took it too.   If you looked at my old Company at a few weeks into a gunnery/training exercise, we'd only be slightly better shaved (because the US Army is still pretty serious about that, although tanker mustaches wouldn't be uncommon), a lot of our gear would look pretty trashed (well worn, but also knocked around/we'd wear our most torn up stuff to the field).

Simply a lot of dirt, lowered hygiene, some unbuttoned pouches doesn't make for a non-functional unit.  The German solider has a highly inflated opinion of his own capabilities from my experience, but it's in the way they're within the realm of being "very capable" just they look around the room and believe themselves to be a few dozen steps above their peers because Deutsche! * but I'd still put good money on them in a fight if it came down to it.

*Take his all with a grain of salt, but working with other countries:

French: The most frustrating mix of very component and very relaxed you will encounter.  Like I imagine a French pilot in a crashing plane would do everything reasonable to keep it from crashing, once that had happened mutter "merde" to themselves, shrug and have a smoke waiting for the plane to explode while the American would die trying to fashion a new engine from the gum wrappers in his pocket and some duct tape up to the point of impact.

British: They're very tired.  Like they're professional but they're really quite sick of whatever nonsense you colonials/continentals are rousted up about.  It doesn't matter if the field itself was invented last week, somehow they'll act as if Wellington himself had an Electronic Warfare Company at Waterloo, and the British have been doing it forever.  In the event they are incorrect this will rarely be acknowledged.  Whatever kit you have is also entirely too much for the job.  You have two radio nets available in your tanks?  We get by with one.  You have only one radio?  Our tanks are connected by no 4 wire and a Lance Corporal or something.  

Poles:  Less exposure, but they seem constantly a little amused.  Americans have tanks?  Who knew?  These computers you have, they turn on when you want them on?  Magic!  Your food, has it caused anyone to explode.  No, I don't mean in the bathrooms I mean literally, do not ask.  Fascinating!  May I have?  You're never sure if they're taking the piss or actually impressed.  Generally good dudes though, if absolute murder to get their names right.

German: Thinks they're the legacy of the Prussian military machine that made Europe quake, is the legacy of social welfare state that has money for post kindergarten's omni-sex bathroom and masseuse for teachers, not for fuel for tanks.

Japanese: Everyone is in total agreement with this plan we made two weeks ago for the operation we are committing to in two hours.  The movements of the enemy are inconsequential to this fact, we are all in agreement, this is where we are going to go because we are in agreement (this is where I had to add in one caveat.  The Japanese are aware of this, and getting a lot better at working on the fly, it's just when they're not a "good" unit they default a lot to "this is the plan we follow because it's the plan we agreed on" vs "this best meets the intention")

Russian: I'm a spy.  You know I'm a spy, I know I'm a spy, I'm going to pretend to be sneaky about this because we are playing a game about it, but we all know why I'm here.  Yep, I just took out my camera and took some shots.  Oh bother the Chinese guy is in the way again.

Chinese: YOU STUPID AMERICANS DO NOT KNOW I AM SPY.  I AM CLEARLY NOT AN INTELLIGENCE AGENT I AM JUST A CHINESE PERSON MYSTERIOUSLY APPEARING IN A PLACE WITH NO CHINESE PEOPLE.  I AM SNEAKILY TAKING A MILLION PICTURES OF EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO ME.  I AM SO SNEAKY.  I AM THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS ****TY AFRICAN VILLAGE IN PERFECTLY CLEAN KHAKIS, MY SHOES ARE NOT DUSTY, AND HAVE THREE THOUSAND DIFFERENT SENSORS HANGING OUT OF MY BACKPACK BUT YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO SEE ME BECAUSE I AM A SPY.  HAHA DUMB AMERICANS WHY ARE THEY ALL LOOKING AT ME SO MUCH?

Thai: WE ARE ALL GENERALS PLEASE DIRECT US TO THE ONE PRIVATE IN THE THAI ARMY SO HE CAN CARRY OUR BAGS.

Korean: It's a lot of solid, squared away soldiers with a generous helping of weird people hiding out in weird corners (the ROKA captain showing up with a Gucci tote and an umbrella to a field exercise was a major wtf) and a dose of semi-subversive conscripts ("Hai, Mr American Captain Man, please allow me to tell you how terrible my chain of Command is and are you in needing of a KATUSA by chance?")

Americans: WE ARE HERE TO HELP BY IGNORING WHATEVER WISDOM YOU MAY HAVE AND ATTEMPTING TO AMERICAN OUR WAY OUT OF ALL PROBLEMS WITH MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY, EXPLOSIVES, OR BOTH WHICH WE WILL FLAGRANTLY LORD OVER YOU WITHOUT REALIZING IT ON ALL OCCASIONS.  

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2 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

British: ... Whatever kit you have is also entirely too much for the job. ...

<snip>

Americans: WE ARE HERE TO HELP BY IGNORING WHATEVER WISDOM YOU MAY HAVE AND ATTEMPTING TO AMERICAN OUR WAY OUT OF ALL PROBLEMS WITH MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF MONEY, EXPLOSIVES, OR BOTH WHICH WE WILL FLAGRANTLY LORD OVER YOU WITHOUT REALIZING IT ON ALL OCCASIONS.  

Forgot to add - with too much kit.

 

23 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Aye. Almost afraid to ask if you ever worked with any Canadians.

His lack of comment pretty much says it all. :)

There are so few of us but those that do show up are generally pretty competent that they actually don't notice us at all :D

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1 hour ago, DerKommissar said:

Aye. Almost afraid to ask if you ever worked with any Canadians.

Canadians:  Generally rather quiet, professional, but they tend to react with shock and horror during live fire exercises the first time we reload, under the impression we have already shot our entire annual ammunition allowance in that round/magazine and should be stopped before we empty the entire budget with a second engagement.  Also constant apologies ("it appears we were not budgeted for food for this exercise, sorry,"  "We actually were denied procurement for the systems we're supposed to have that replace the 1950's era equipment you gave us for Korea, but we are all out of vacuum tubes so that doesn't work either, sorry"  "It appears you ran over our command post again, we are terribly sorry for not thinking you would drive an armor company through this area that was clearly marked off not for tracked vehicle traffic, that was our mistake, sorry")

As additional commonwealth commnetary;

Australians:  As a brand new 2LT, I as sitting by myself at the dining facility at Victory Base Complex.  Two RAAF Warrant officers asked if they could sit at my table.  Imagine two massive, practically identical, virtually beet red men, with not a hair between them, and tiny squinty eyes hidden behind tiny wire framed glasses.  Listening to their conversations, and attempts to converse with me. it sounded something like this: "WALL ALLTEEE BILLABONG STEVE IRWIN STINGRAY RIOUGHT NOW CROCODATOR GONNA SCAVVY SOME UP TO NED KELLY GONNA STAB EM RIGHT IN THE NEW GUINEA."

Some ten minutes later, dining complete they laughed with a sound like the world ending slapped me on the back and told me I was a "right mate" (or "big date" "slight plate" or possibly "Kite Hate") and disappeared into the heat.

NOTE:

I just want to make it clear, of all the not-Iraqi security forces elements I've worked with, there's none of them I wouldn't work with again.  As much as I've just listed off funny stereotypes, with all credit to the JGSDF, working with them I found they were a bunch of smart folks in an organization that is rapidly transforming into one that's trying to be part of regional security rather than trying to figure out what it's defending against.  As much as I just talked of some of the most digger to ever digger Australians, equally did I learn tons from my Australian Cavalry Leader's Course Instructor, and his keen intelligence on keeping a force that hits like a ton of bricks but crumples in a stiff wind in the fight.  Germans may be a more hat than cowboy than they should be, but the cowboy part knows it's trade well enough to stack green men if we ask them to, and when their government lets them, they're fine soldiers.  

I'm glad to be on the "right" side of the security equation.  We're not perfect, but it's a scary world, and certain actors would rather rule the ruins than live in a community, and in that, again, I'm glad to have served, and hope to continue to serve, with the partners I have (and will likely continue to) somewhat gently lampooned here.  

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3 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

British: They're very tired.  Like they're professional but they're really quite sick of whatever nonsense you colonials/continentals are rousted up about.  It doesn't matter if the field itself was invented last week, somehow they'll act as if Wellington himself had an Electronic Warfare Company at Waterloo, and the British have been doing it forever.  In the event they are incorrect this will rarely be acknowledged.  Whatever kit you have is also entirely too much for the job.  You have two radio nets available in your tanks?  We get by with one.  You have only one radio?  Our tanks are connected by no 4 wire and a Lance Corporal or something.  

That is gold mate ... I guess my mates and I must have sounded like that to you guys all of the time.  A real pleasure to have shared the same dirt/sand though.

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4 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:


French: The most frustrating mix of very component and very relaxed you will encounter. 

I must say I'm confused by your use of component in this sentence, what do you mean haha ? Very intesresting anecdotes though, always funny to have the other side views !

-----

To get back on the previous discussion,

I agree with the fact that most of German Armed forces problems don't come from money. Even though they could definitely invest a lot more in defense considering their GDP and general wealth.

When you look at the actual budgets, German, French and UK budgets are more or less in the same league, but there is a huge capability/readiness gap between France and UK and Germany. And it is even more striking when you consider that German armed forces have a much smaller navy, no nuclear detterent forces, no bases abroad and a lot fewer deployments. So with this level of expenditures and comitment, they should really have a much capable force.

I really thing the problems comes from an organisational/cultural standpoint, and that before giving it more money, those problems shoud be fixed first otherwise it would just be wasted. If you were increasing the French and German budget in the same amount, probably the French/Brits would get twice the Germans return.

I think it is very much link to how the German army spends its money and how it is organised.

That was my take on the issue.

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3 minutes ago, FoxZz said:

I must say I'm confused by your use of component in this sentence, what do you mean haha ? Very intesresting anecdotes though, always funny to have the other side views !

I believe he meant to sat competent was too busy brushing up for his Australian portrayal.

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1 minute ago, sburke said:

I believe he meant to sat competent was too busy brushing up for his Australian portrayal.

Ok, lol, it's indeed much more understable now ! Thanks !

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6 hours ago, AtheistDane said:

It wouldn't surprise me if part of the German Military's budget is being diverted to pay for the millions of unproductive Third World immigrants that Angela Merkel and the other open-borders lunatics in Germany have imported over the last two decades. 
 

The next time you want to violate the forum rules by hijacking/derailing a thread, kindly let me know ahead of time so I can ban you first instead of after.  You've been warned officially.

I just have to say that I'm not nearly as bothered by extreme left or right wing ideological comments when there's at least some reasonable basis in fact for them. As it is, you might as well have said "it wouldn't surprise me if part of the reason we haven't colonized Mars is because of the millions of unproductive hours spent watching kitten and puppy videos".  Actually, on second thought, what I just said is probably more on the mark.

Steve

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My two bits on the German defense budget.  Contrary to views of people who live in a caves, Merkel has been slowly increasing military spending:

infografik_8292_deutschlands_militaeraus

https://www.thelocal.de/20170301/this-is-how-much-german-military-spending-has-grown-over-time

There's lots of reasons why things have apparently been getting worse.  The primary one is what PzKraut brought up... scale.  If you're going to have a military budget for what amounts to a local defense force, then have a local defense force that fits that budget.  Most of the militaries in Europe have scaled their capabilities way back since the Cold War days.  Especially on logistics end.  Germany, on the other hand, outwardly appears to be in the same league as Britain and France in terms of range of capabilities.  In reality it isn't because the money isn't there to keep things running.

The reasons for the decline of the Bundeswehr can be traced back to the 1970s.  I had a friend who served in the late 1970s and another who served in the late 1980s.  Both of them said they didn't think the BW was ready for war.  It's only gotten worse since 1990 when Reunification happened and Germans were faced with huge costs of reintegrating East Germany AND saw no immediate threat from the east.  Couple this with decades of anti-war sentiment country wide, it's not difficult to see why things fell apart so badly.

The political will in the German government to address the underlying problems of the BW and society seems to be lacking.  However, the attention focused on this seems to finally be shaming Germans, of all political stripes, to at least talk about the problems.  Will something significant change without a war happening?  I don't know, but I hope so.  Germans are wasting their resources trying to do too much with too little.

Steve

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The reasons for the decline of the Bundeswehr can be traced back to the 1970s.  I had a friend who served in the late 1970s and another who served in the late 1980s.  Both of them said they didn't think the BW was ready for war. 

That's an interesting statement. I've always thought, that especially in the 80's, BW was in a pretty good shape, being the main the pillar of NATO's defences. From the other hand, in theory the Wehrmacht was never completely ready for the war, but this fact never prevent it from being quite effective ( at least for the time being ), when the actual war broke out ;)

Edited by Ivanov

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33 minutes ago, Ivanov said:

That's an interesting statement. I've always thought, that especially in the 80's, BW was in a pretty good shape, being the main the pillar of NATO's defences. From the other hand, in theory the Wehrmacht was never completely ready for the war, but this fact never prevent it from being quite effective ( at least for the time being ), when the actual war broke out ;)

When your enemies suck worse than you do, you tend to look okay :D It is when your enemies start getting their act together that your own issues rise to the surface.  Either you fix them or now the suckiness scale starts to tilt.

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