"It seems you can't have one of these lists without at least one Combat Mission game."

[akd]

Wargamer published a list of the best WW2 strategy and wargames, but did not include any CM titles.  The locals revolted and now there is a V2 of the list with CM at the top.

https://www.wargamer.com/articles/best-ww2-strategy-games-war-games/

[Bulletpoint]

Still using those awful screenshots though.

[akd]

I know...:(

[rocketman]

6 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Still using those awful screenshots though.

Sue them for defamation - the heretics 

[DerKommissar]

Can someone explain to me how IL-2 is a strategy game?

[The Steppenwulf]

16 minutes ago, DerKommissar said:

Can someone explain to me how IL-2 is a strategy game?

But arguably neither is CM.
The Wargamer's Guide To .... the best WW2 Strategy and War Games

[DerKommissar]

Just now, The Steppenwulf said:

But arguably neither is CM.
The Wargamer's Guide To .... the best WW2 Strategy and War Games

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargame_(video_games)

CM is considered a Wargame by Wiki, and a Wargame is a sub-genre of Strategy game. IL-2 is a flight simulator. I really enjoy it, but it doesn't belong on that list by any definition. May as well put Need for Speed 1944 on that list.

[The Steppenwulf]

Wargame is a sub-genre of Strategy game!

I don't want to labour this, but really, does a wargame, first have to be a strategy game? 

CM is a tactical game as well as a wargame.

IL-2, like DCS, is both a flight sim and a wargame. Both can be defined as wargames but neither defined as strategy. If IL-2 doesn't belong on that list then neither does CM. I don't know Need for Speed 1944 but I suspect you invented it to make a straw man point!? 

EDIT: I think the term "strategy games" as a genre of video games is a very loose one which is mainly historic and is clearly ill-defined anyhow, but especially given the cross blend of many genres in today's video games market.

Edited April 17, 2018 by The Steppenwulf
edit point

[akd]

You are confusing war games and wargames.  (Really though, there is no clear definition.  Here they clearly mean games about the Second World War.)

Edited April 17, 2018 by akd

[DerKommissar]

1 hour ago, The Steppenwulf said:

Wargame is a sub-genre of Strategy game!

I don't want to labour this, but really, does a wargame, first have to be a strategy game? 

CM is a tactical game as well as a wargame.

IL-2, like DCS, is both a flight sim and a wargame. Both can be defined as wargames but neither defined as strategy. If IL-2 doesn't belong on that list then neither does CM. I don't know Need for Speed 1944 but I suspect you invented it to make a straw man point!? 

EDIT: I think the term "strategy games" as a genre of video games is a very loose one which is mainly historic and is clearly ill-defined anyhow, but especially given the cross blend of many genres in today's video games market.

CM is a Strategy game, especially on larger maps. You can control a battalion or so, much more units than Company of Heroes or Starcraft. CnC type games have you control each soldier, are they not strategy? Men of War lets you assume direct control of a unit, is it not strategy? That's what their developers and publishers define them as. 

IL-2 is marketed, and defined by any Wiki, as a flight simulator, because the focus is on flying planes. I believe you can adjust the rules of engagement, or formation, of a squadron, if you're squadron leader. I will concede DCS to you, because it has that JTAC DLC. You can also command tanks, but it's not marketed as a tank simulator.

What I meant by "Need for Speed 1944" is that Need for Speed focuses on operating a motorized vehicle, just like IL-2. In Carbon, you even get to command another car that smashes cops or whatever. Why did they just not call it "Top 10 Best WW2 Games"? I mean, WW2 already has "war" in its initialism. Would you not assume that a WW2 game would be about a war?

Now, I'm being facetious. I would just prefer if they compared similar games to one another -- not pineapples and potato mashers.  

[The Steppenwulf]

4 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

CM is a Strategy game, especially on larger maps. You can control a battalion or so, much more units than Company of Heroes or Starcraft. CnC type games have you control each soldier, are they not strategy? Men of War lets you assume direct control of a unit, is it not strategy? That's what their developers and publishers define them as. 

Devs and publishers are referring to a genre of video game which best defines the game within popular video game culture. There are historical reasons why these genres have developed these tags: eg the type of programming design; be it real time or turnbased  and camera top down as opposed to camera first person or platform/side-scrolling games. This is where these genre types belong; they are rooted in the early programming development of video games. Nothing more! 

An example of how things have moved on is best illustrated if we consider that games developed today cut across many traditional genres. Take a game like Skyrim or Fallout, whilst being defined within video game culture as RPG games, they incorporate aspects of FPS, trading and even strategy, as well as role playing. So the term RPG is nothing more than a vestigial tag which is useful only insofar as to define the game for marketing purposes, to engage a certain audience if you will. 

So when you quote Wiki definitions as if they are a kind of shibboleth, they have no authority, and are largely meaningless for the reasons outlined in detail above.

So you are conflating this use of the word (as a video game genre) with military terms which define tactical and strategic in a much more specific way. In this, Combat Mission would undoubtedly be best described as a tactical simulation game of WW2 and modern warfare. There may well be some elements of strategy involved, that's arguable, but it's overwhelmingly tactical. The term strategy game to describe CM (because it is a turn based/ realtime wargame) is rooted in the past, it's outdated and I've never noted Battlefront use this description in its marketing - most likely for this very reason.  

So why is the magazine article using these terms you might ask? Simply because they are useful terms to convey to the reader the article's purpose. The article is not dressed up to be anything more than pop.

 

4 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

Now, I'm being facetious. I would just prefer if they compared similar games to one another -- not pineapples and potato mashers.

Indeed, I totally agree. But again, the cross-genre of today's games/sims are difficult to compare. The "Strategy" tag is merely for the readers convenience and the article is not to be taken that seriously... it's casual pop reading, nothing more!

In a more serious comparative review, Graviteam Tactics would get a mention alongside CM, DCS would be compared with IL-2 and Silent Hunter 3 or 4 should be included on any list of "best ever video war games"!  

 

Edited April 18, 2018 by The Steppenwulf

[domfluff]

(Whoops. I might have had a little to do with the post being changed...)

In computer game terminology, "strategy games" is the correct genre for CM.

In military/grog terminology, CM is a 'Tactical' game. At best it might be a "grand tactical" game, on massive maps.

It doesn't really have enough logistical nuance to really be considered an 'Operational' game, even in the campaign system. You can fiddle around with that to a certain extent (e.g., branch a mission into two options with different reinforcement rates, depending on whether a supply cache was blown up or not), but it's crude and not terribly satisfying.

CM is certainly not a 'strategy' game in the military/grog sense, since there's none of the political/diplomatic concerns that define that.

The definitions are pretty vague, still:

The Australian defence force defines them as follows:

Strategic Level of War The strategic level of war is concerned with the art and science of employing national power.

Operational Level of War The operational level of war is concerned with the planning and conduct of campaigns. It is at this level that military strategy is implemented by assigning missions, tasks and resources to tactical operations. See also campaign.

Campaign A controlled series of simultaneous or sequential operations designed to achieve an operational commander’s objective, normally within a given time or space. See also operational level of war.

Tactical Level of War The tactical level of war is concerned with the planning and conduct of battle and is characterised by the application of concentrated force and offensive action to gain objectives.

CM is a tactical game, and it can be a Campaign game with... campaigns. It's not an Operational or Strategic game at all.


As far as computer games are concerned, 'Strategy games' is a shorthand, nothing more. That serves a purpose. If I was after deep comparisons of wargame titles, I wouldn't go for a top ten list like this. I'd much rather see something like that Armchair General series on CM, or an article a while back that was using CMANO to model the F-35 and try to understand it's role in some plausible contexts. 'Wargames' is a similarly dodgy shorthand - there's a reason why 'Consim' has been preferred for a while. 'Conflict Simulation' is a term which more accurately covers most simulationist games.

[DerKommissar]

5 hours ago, domfluff said:

In computer game terminology, "strategy games" is the correct genre for CM.

In military/grog terminology, CM is a 'Tactical' game. At best it might be a "grand tactical" game, on massive maps.

Precisely what I am saying. This article is about computer games, in general. It features tactical, operational and strategic scale games -- turn based and real time. It also features a single game that does not focus on any level of command: IL-2. In IL-2, you play a pilot and fly wherever they tell you. I just found that odd.

15 hours ago, The Steppenwulf said:

The term strategy game to describe CM (because it is a turn based/ realtime wargame) is rooted in the past, it's outdated and I've never noted Battlefront use this description in its marketing - most likely for this very reason.  

Genres, by definition, are vast generalizations. I was quoting Wiki to establish general definitions, that people have. I do not support their validity. My gripe was that IL-2 does not belong to either the Strategy or Wargame genres -- by any stretch of their meanings.

That's it, really. Closest games I would compare to CM would be Graviteam games, Close Combat, Panzer Command and maybe Steel Panthers. Even then, Graviteam and Close Combat focus on turn-based higher level command and real-time lower level command. Steel Panthers is a hex-grid game. Panzer Command, on the other hand, is a shameless CM 1 clone.

[John Kettler]

akd,

Appreciate the link, and had no idea the great S.R. Cobb thought so highly of CMFB. Would note, though, an error in the review's characterization of the game.

Units are represented down to individual squads and tanks

This isn't accurate, since, as we know, the game actually goes down to the individual soldier.

Regards,

John Kettler

[c3k]

8 hours ago, John Kettler said:

akd,

Appreciate the link, and had no idea the great S.R. Cobb thought so highly of CMFB. Would note, though, an error in the review's characterization of the game.

Units are represented down to individual squads and tanks

This isn't accurate, since, as we know, the game actually goes down to the individual soldier.

Regards,

John Kettler

"Units"

They do get down to the "team" rather than the "squad". But the game does NOT represent individual soldiers...or else you'd have an icon and an order for every soldier. You may be getting hung up on a pedantic definition of "represent".

[John Kettler]

c3k,

Full marks for "pedantic" and I do take your point, although I would note you can have, for example, an individual order up for say, a sniper team down a man and a number of other situations, such as an officer out of command range of own troops, a single Javelin gunner (have had one of those myself), etc.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited May 3, 2018 by John Kettler

[Sublime]

*cough cough* igla missile man... my go to for that BMP commamd spot