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kinophile

Who plays Real Time mode?

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Curious who's into this mode. 

Personally, I prefer RT as a concept, it's way more nail buying and intense, and really beats you if you have a bad plan from the start. I can do well in RT if my initial 5 mins are not stupid. Plus, keeping an inactive/slow moving reserve 8s critical to reacting/exploiting (no surprises there really). 

My work can be random within any given week, and usually a minimum of 12 hrs + travel. So for PBEMs it's difficult for me to commit to a regular  1-3 turns each day. 

RT however can be a reasonable 1-3 hours. Usually 1 hour Setup, minimum. 

Who's interested? 

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It all depends on size of scenario.  When CM1 came out I was convinced that RT was the only way to play for the reasons you stated.

But, as I became more experienced (and aged) and started to play much larger scenarios, I became a religiously fervent WEGO convert.  Apart from playability, it's so much fun to replay sequences all over the battlefield to see all the small pixeltruppen stories get told.

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That is a very good point - its a real pity to not have that replayability for an entire game. The code is there in priniciple, for wego etc, so its not like a whole new functionaility and concept would need to be built, rather the existing infrastructure extended. But we all know and understand BFs limited resources, so not whining or anything :).

I've built several scenarios, testing each always in RT. Naturally I've learned that you can play battalion level RT, but not really all units off the top. 

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My 'ideal' tactical battle size appears to be 100-ish men and under a dozen-ish vehicles played realtime (roughly Company-size). If forces get much bigger I start dropping balls in my attempt to juggle everything at once. Playing a full battalion would be 4 times that size or more. That's playable realtime only if you're willing to accept uncontrolled mayhem on the battlefield.

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1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

That's playable realtime only if you're willing to accept uncontrolled mayhem on the battlefield.

Actually, that lack of total control is fundamentally what appeals to me. 

Versus AI it makes life that bit harder, and thus a more interesting game. The AI essentially gets an advantage over me, but only as much as I let it through lack of planning, foresight and reaction. Thus majesty fight trickier, without artificially buffing the AI (I only play Iron anyway). 

Versus Humans, the above 3 mental requirements are even more important, adding in the random elements of human deviousness, incompetence and bad luck.

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Speaking to your note re 4 times as much to control - yes, that is a, lot to take on off the top. For quick battles it essentially forces a minimum of 1 hour prep. 

I personally prefer scenarios that build, allowing you get into the swing of things. 

I'm building a UKR scenario right now that takes that model and twists it.... 

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I started out playing on Real Time. As a veteran of pause-able real time games, I liked the ability to pause and give orders at intervals of my choosing. It also felt much faster than WEGO. This being said, I could pause 20 times in a minute -- if I wanted to get something /right/. The reason I play on WEGO now is that I can dedicate my time to watching the action. Zoom in on something I may have missed or re-watch a sick hit.

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When versus AI - scenario editor mode. I very much enjoy not having fog of war, turning off icons, and commanding my troops that way. Of course, this offers no challenge if I flip icons on.

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That sounds kind of 'Command & Conquer' to me.  :rolleyes:

What I like about CM is that you don't know precisely what the enemy is up to, unless you do.  ;)

Real-Time is putatively more realistic on this front.....Up to about platoon level.  Beyond that and you have to pause so often you might as well be playing Turn-Based anyway, plus you don't get to enjoy the replays.  :unsure:

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An aspect of the game a lot of people haven't tried, I suspect, is diving into the editor and teaching yourself how to construct detailed AI orders sets. Its an entirely different level of play. After some time away from it I've recently gotten back into building AI plans and its pretty freaking amazing what you can get to AI to accomplish if you put some thought into it. I'm a better general as AI orders builder than I am as realtime player! :o

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28 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

 I'm a better general as AI orders builder than I am as realtime player! :o

Given that your original plan is a succesful one i'm guessing...

As a realtime player you can adjust your plan mid game. The AI on the other hand is very limited in this regard...

More trigger options (or even better, conditinal triggers) would be very welcome ! B)

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When I play scenario editor mode I don't go searching for the enemy.. But yeah I wish I could flip it back and fourth between Iron sometimes. It's cool just watching battles slug it out.

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Posted (edited)

Re AI editor - I agree/disagree... 

AGREE: Yes, its actually pretty adaptable, and with careful triggers can "react" to human activity. My best AI results have been from playing a map multiple times against humans, noting and copying their actions (in whole/part) and building subsequent AI plans upon that historical record.

I've used one human oppo's ambush against me as an AI plan and it worked perfectly against him when He playtested for me. Revenge by proxy :). 

DISAGREE: Boy, does that UI, wording and implementation approach need a massive update. My personal preference would be to be able to extract every single order, as a log file, from a faction in a particular battle and simply paste in as a pre-made AI plan into another map. Open it up in the editor and tweak each order as you like it. 

Essentially, take a replay, change the map and be able to scrub through the turns, adjusting orders per faction turn to account for the differences. 

Oh if wishes were fishes.... 

Edited by kinophile

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Yes...you can obviously do some decent things with the AI programing. Especially with the AI controlling the defending side.
What i mean though when i say that the AI is very limited in its ability to react to situations on the battlefield i mean things like...
 
- having two AI groups of tanks moving down a road to cross a river. The first AI group gets shot up by the bridge. It would be kind of neat if the second AI group could 'react' and
not continue down the same road...into the same deathtrap...but rather divert to a secondary crossing point. The AI can not do that right now.
 
- Having an infantry platoon and a Tigertank defend a bridge. When/if the Tiger gets destroyed then the infantry platoon will pull back to a different location.
 
- Having an AI group set up as a counterattacking force that would be able to attack in several different ways depending on how the player decides to advance.
etc, etc...

The fact that it currently makes no difference if a single sniper enters a triggerzone or if it is a full battalion that does the same thing is another thing that complicates AI programing somewhat.
The scenario designer might want the AI to react in a certain way if the player moves into a specific area in force...and not react if the player only springs that trigger with a small scouting team...

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Re damage to Friendly units, I believe you can set  a trigger to the condition of any unit, either side. 

Re full units in triggers -you can be specific about which unit activates. . In theory you could set multiple triggers in a choke pint, each one for a different activating unit. It would get expensive in triggers, but still. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, kinophile said:

Re damage to Friendly units, I believe you can set  a trigger to the condition of any unit, either side. 

I don't think so.......... Or if so I would like to know how :).  Triggers are terrain based (paint the terrain tiles) for friendly, friendly armor or enemy and enemy armor.  Or I may not understand what you're saying ............... In parameters you can set % for conditions tied to VPs.   :)

Edited by MOS:96B2P

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3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:

I don't think so.......... Or if so I would like to know how :).  Triggers are terrain based (paint the terrain tiles) for friendly, friendly armor or enemy and enemy armor.  Or I may not understand what you're saying ............... In parameters you can set % for conditions tied to VPs.   :)

What he said.  ;)

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