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exsonic01

Next Korean war is coming close...

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36 minutes ago, sburke said:

well the child prodigy who could drive at 3 did send a very nice letter to the President last week apparently.

Not too surprising actually. After all, they are in fundamental agreement on one important point: the destruction of the United States as an important world power opposed to tyranny.

Michael

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US going after DPRK in UN over illegal oil imports.  China and Russia expected to block.  This will be an interesting test of Trump's relation to Russia.  Will he get as upset at them as he almost certainly will at China?  Will Rocket man still get his Elton John CD?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-asks-un-to-cut-off-oil-products-to-north-korea/ar-AAzZ3Pf?ocid=spartanntp

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Though I have a few friends in S Korea, I can't say I follow politics there very much.  I have somewhat closer interests/family in Japan and have a better grounding in history.  This article on the conservative side of S Korean politics and the effect Trump has had is fairly interesting and not something I would have expected.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/south-korean-conservatives-lined-up-with-trump-and-reaped-electoral-disaster/ar-AAA7otX?ocid=spartanntp

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Clearly, they have their own political problems:  

"The rot in South Korea’s conservative movement set in before Trump’s detente with North Korea. It accelerated with a string of scandals surrounding conservative former president Park Geun-hye that left the movement deeply divided.

The daughter of former president Park Chung-hee, an autocrat who presided over an economic boom only to be assassinated in 1979, the younger Park made history as South Korea’s first female president in 2013. But allegations of cronyism soon saw her domestic support drop off dramatically."

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Yep, that is absolutely true but even within that they are still struggling with how to address their relationship with a President taking positions that are counter to what they expected from a Republican President.  Making concessions that even the democrats would not have considered with so far nothing in return. 

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2 hours ago, sburke said:

even the democrats would not have considered

You forget that Democrats and Republicans (and the UN) have been making concession to NK for decades with nothing in return.  Same as with China.  That's the whole point - we had to try something new.  That's why Trumpy was elected.   At least he has gotten over to chat and rattle things.  We'll see what results (if any) in the coming years (not weeks or months).   Amazed by the sudden short-term thinking and convenient memory loss exhibited in this thread.  :unsure:

 

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45 minutes ago, Erwin said:

You forget that Democrats and Republicans (and the UN) have been making concession to NK for decades with nothing in return.  Same as with China.  That's the whole point - we had to try something new.  That's why Trumpy was elected.   At least he has gotten over to chat and rattle things.  We'll see what results (if any) in the coming years (not weeks or months).   Amazed by the sudden short-term thinking and convenient memory loss exhibited in this thread.  :unsure:

 

after that press conference with Putin I have no faith that Trump has any idea at all about how to negotiate. Litigate yes, negotiate no. 

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My rule of thumb is to expect little or no truthful or accurate info from press conferences.  That's the trouble with the vast majority of our media these days.  They have replaced actual news journalism (especially investigative journalism) with parroting press releases and heated and endless "discussion/commentary" shows to fill the breaks between ads.

While it is very entertaining to have a fun chat about all this stuff here, the reality is that we will not know what is working or not for some years.  People forget how much Abe Lincoln was vilified in the 1860's, and how much FDR was hated in the 30's.  History will be the judge.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/06/abraham-lincoln-is-an-idiot/309304/

https://knowledgenuts.com/2014/01/02/abraham-lincoln-was-actually-hated-when-president/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Franklin_D._Roosevelt

 

 

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You make it sound like anyone who is anyone cares what the media says - even "Foxy Friends".   Altho' agreed...  FOX does tend to have the best women re legs, cleavages, skin displayed etc.

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You missed the point completely.  Trump cares, they are his cheerleaders.  They don't balk at almost anything he does.  They balked on this one. 

No idea why you felt you needed to sink that comment on women on Fox.  It had nothing to do with anything I was remarking on and completely unrelated to anything on this thread.

Anyway back to DPRK.  https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2018/07/16/North-Korea-pardons-criminals-to-mark-regimes-70th-anniversary/8011531706148/

Kim showing how magnanimous he can be- just before he shoots someone with an AA gun, probably a family member.

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Maybe the question is "what matters?"   To some of us at least the most important items are 1) improving economy; 2) unrestricted immigration being addressed; 3) no missiles flying; 4) NK and China threats finally being addressed; 5) unemployment down;  6) the "forgotten workers" having hope (finally) etc.   I come from an immigrant/refugee from war, working class family, so these items resonate with me.  

Don't really care who is actually accomplishing any of the above. Don't care about personalities or their characters since the above items are more about national survival and economic improvement.  We're already in a 21st century war - economically and culturally.  Churchill wasn't a nice man.  He was gotten rid of as soon as as WW2 was over.  The moral is that whomever can get the job done while the crisis is in effect will continue to be supported.  

As to your point re NK, thanks to Chinese support, NK has been a nasty totalitarian regime terrorizing their population for decades since Kim #1 in 1948.  Hypocritical and politically cynical for folks to suddenly become incensed about NK now. 

 

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Actually, I didn't vote for Trumpy.  (At the time, I rather liked the old fellow that The Dems and Hillary cheated and who might have beaten Trump.)  But, sad how you try to use that to dismiss my points - like calling someone a "racist" to stop all discussion cos one can't win the actual discussion. 

"You missed the point completely.  Trump cares, they are his cheerleaders.  They don't balk at almost anything he does.  They balked on this one."   

Yes, let's "get this back to just discussing the DPRK" for the 3 or 4 people who actually read this forum b4 they fall asleep.  :mellow:

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Yes, let's "get this back to just discussing the DPRK" for the 3 or 4 people who actually read this forum b4 they fall asleep.  :mellow:

Did you really feel the need to insult others interested in this thread?  I didn't "dismiss" your points I simply said they are not relevant to the topic this thread is about and that we should get back to it.  I will admit to being surprised you'd have backed Bernie as he does not share your position on immigration.  Trump does fit all those so I made an assumption- my bad.

 

I know this undermines my comments above about getting back on track, but well.. it is funny.   From a friend -

"If you are afraid of Mexicans taking your job, and then declare all Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers.... just what the f**k do you do for a living?"

Edited by sburke

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1 hour ago, sburke said:

"If you are afraid of Mexicans taking your job, and then declare all Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers.... just what the f**k do you do for a living?"

LOL - that should be on a protest sign.

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instant classic. Do I have permission to paraphrase that in heated political arguments as long as I say a "friend once told me.."?

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news lately is pretty much not really informative.  One article claiming DPRK still working on missiles but in the same article said that is pretty much the norm in every nuclear treaty we've worked on- until tangible process is made one can't expect everything to just stop.  The other is on Korean war dead- it is possible we have made some progress on return of remains, but even Mattis is saying not until we can do some verification.  So... possible progress, nothing really substantial either way.

More interesting is some replacement at the top among Korean Generals.  Hard to say what that shift really means but it could be Kim surrounding himself with folks who are more supportive of a different direction.

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On 7/16/2018 at 3:30 PM, Erwin said:

Amazed by the sudden short-term thinking and convenient memory loss exhibited in this thread.  :unsure:

 

you mean like forgetting that the N Koreans have broke every promise ever and to every previous administration and then trotting over there, giving up concessions for nothing and then declaring on the way home the jobs jobbed?

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Exactly.  Past administrations didn't have to balls to do what was necessary.  Putting pressure on China is the only way to bring the  NK's to heel.  And finally we're doing that.

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1 hour ago, Erwin said:

Exactly.  Past administrations didn't have to balls to do what was necessary.  Putting pressure on China is the only way to bring the  NK's to heel.  And finally we're doing that.

How so?  Lots of news about tariffs and trade but nothing related to DPRK and China. The sanctions program still looks like it isn’t going anywhere with Russia undermining it as well.  If anything our current trade war with China is undermining getting their support with DPRK when I see Trump family products no longer having made in China labels I might start believing the hype  

https://www.wsj.com/articles/russia-is-issuing-north-korean-work-permits-despite-u-n-ban-1533216752?mod=nwsrl_pro_cyber_news&cx_refModule=nwsrl

the real question seems to be what does Kim see as his best move. So far it is impossible to tell if he is just playing Trump or if he is looking for a different path and using the leverage of a functional nuclear program to make a better deal.  

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Well, am happy with the way we are being told things are going (who knows how real that info is of course).  We may have to wait several months or even years to see how things work out.  But, these are actions that should have been done many years ago - and those leaders chose appeasement instead.  

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Appeasement?  Rigid sanctions is hardly appeasement. Wait are we talking China or DPRK?  The statement was we were pressuring China on N Korea. I have seen no pressure on China regarding N Korea and the tariffs undermine gaining their cooperation.  So in sum,  prior to our govt current stance we refused any high level meeting without some measure of movement by N Korea enlisting the U.N. and China in that process. 

Now we hold a highest level meeting, we get no guarantees and in fact lower the threshold from previous agreements and we engage in a trade war with China undermining getting their assistance in isolating the N Korea regime while Russia also continues to undermine us with no ill effect. 

Where is the upside in all this and why would I trust the statements of our executive who has established a level of flat out disinformation on a scale we have never seen who actively undermines our only allies?  

I am having a difficult time understanding what actions we are taking that could even be presumed to have a positive impact. I am perfectly content to say negotiations are in process to which I am most emphatically not entitled to know the details on, but this administration has shown a singular lack of understanding how to conduct negotiations and has left the highest echelons of the diplomatic community vacant throughout this process.  

This isn’t an issue of opposing trump per se, though I do consider him completely unfit for the office.  Even the Republican leadership in the Senate is confused by what the hell is going on here and they should actually know the details.  Pompeo was supposed to report them himself so color me skeptical when asked to take this administration at it’s word. 

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