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sandman2575

Squads breaking cover for no reason?

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So, I've been away from CMx2 for a while, but jumped into the Abbaye d'Authie battle. Game is updated to v 4.00.

I'm alarmed to see units breaking cover of their own volition. These are not green units either. They're veteran SS-panzergrenadiers with good morale (often +2).  I just had a squad in a good position, and not under heavy fire but giving pretty heavy fire to the Canadians -- they just up and decided to run out of cover and straight into an open field, where most of them got shot up.

Is this part of the new infantry behavior for v 4.00? Because if so, it's pretty game breaking.

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To summarize so you don't have to search thru a thousand other forums...  Many have complained about this new behavior and BF is working on fixing it.   Don't worry...  Be happy...  :)

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22 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

So, I've been away from CMx2 for a while, but jumped into the Abbaye d'Authie battle. Game is updated to v 4.00.

I'm alarmed to see units breaking cover of their own volition. These are not green units either. They're veteran SS-panzergrenadiers with good morale (often +2).  I just had a squad in a good position, and not under heavy fire but giving pretty heavy fire to the Canadians -- they just up and decided to run out of cover and straight into an open field, where most of them got shot up.

Is this part of the new infantry behavior for v 4.00? Because if so, it's pretty game breaking.

Glad you just found it as it is being worked on so hopefully you'll not have to face it too much longer.

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9 hours ago, Erwin said:

Many have complained about this new behavior and BF is working on fixing it. 

I appreciate the response, Erwin, both yours and Warts'n'all's -- but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the 4.00 patch released in Jan. 2017? That's over a year ago. I'm not sure how to take "BF is working on fixing it" then ... "with a grain of salt" seems appropriate and, indeed, generous.

It's dismaying that one can come back to CMx2 after a hiatus and discover, within less than an hour of play, a major problem that still hasn't been addressed, 13 months on.

It's equally dismaying that it's by no means clear that the standard work around -- 'roll back to version 3.00' - is possible. Given the headaches associated with BF's 'activation' process and confusion over version numbers and order in which modules need to be installed... I wouldn't even know where to begin.

This truly is not meant as 'Battlefront bashing' -- I fully recognize I haven't been part of this community nearly as long as many of you, but I own all the CMx2 games and have poured a lot of hours into each of them, and don't regret that in the slightest.

Still (and I know the phrase gets thrown around a lot) this really does seem game-breaking to me.  I can't see the point of spending hours carefully plotting out tactics if your squads can just move about of their own accord, making the stupidest of decisions and getting annihilated in the process. If there really is no work around for this, then I guess it's back to the shelf for CMx2, and will check back in 6 months to see if BF has bothered to sort any of this out.

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Problem is when you have a couple of guys doing all the work.  It's not like BF has hordes of programmers they can reassign from planned tasks.  All of us who have been longtime BF supporters have learned patience and also trust in that BF won't release anything until it's good and ready. 

Obviously, this issue is irritating to many.  Personally I find I can usually work around it by using different tactics.

 

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2 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

I appreciate the response, Erwin, both yours and Warts'n'all's -- but correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the 4.00 patch released in Jan. 2017? That's over a year ago. I'm not sure how to take "BF is working on fixing it" then ... "with a grain of salt" seems appropriate and, indeed, generous.

 

Before you go to far down that train of thought, you may want to read some other threads.  When it became a "known" issue and when there was some actual evidence that something was awry and when that information translated in testing to an actual source was not Jan 2017.  TAC AI behavior in CM is complicated- one of the reasons we all like the game so the fact that BF is taking the time to try and get it right rather than a hasty patch that likely breaks something else is a good thing.

I would check back sooner than 6 months though. 

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6 hours ago, Erwin said:

All of us who have been longtime BF supporters have learned patience and also trust in that BF won't release anything until it's good and ready. 

Like the 4.0 update? :)

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Cool!

I just had a CMBN Battle wher this issue first showed itself in all its horror (been playing more CMSF lately) and am happy to see it is already adressed.

Thank you guys! :D

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I see that the @sburke and @c3k have already pointed to the discussion about the issue in 4.0 and the plan to fix it and all the fun around that. So I'll just try to answer some of the other questions or should I say statements :D

 

13 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

It's equally dismaying that it's by no means clear that the standard work around -- 'roll back to version 3.00' - is possible. Given the headaches associated with BF's 'activation' process and confusion over version numbers and order in which modules need to be installed... I wouldn't even know where to begin.

That is easy peasy as long as you USE THE ALL IN ONE INSTALLERS. If you still have the all in one installers from previous builds of the games you own you can don't even have to re-download them. If you don't still have them, you can download them again. After that you have two choices:

1) you don't want to keep the v4 update versions on your machine at all (I recommend this only if you are tight for disk space)

Uninstall the previous game.

Run the all in one install for the v3 update.

You are done.

 

2) you want to keep v4 around so that you can patch it and move forward later

Run the all in one install for the v3 update and make sure you point to a different directory than your v4 games.

You are done.

 

There is a small chance that it will ask you to activate again but I expect very few people will see that since v3 is already activated on your machine. So, there you have it: one decision to make and max two steps to follow and optionally some downloading time. I wish everything in life were that simple :D

The only gottcha is that for all the games other than CMBN they share the scenarios and game save folders. So, your v3 game will not load any saves or scenarios created with the v4 game but they will show up in the list. For many people there are not many scenarios that will trigger this.

PS. I have multiple version of all of the games installed on my computer at any given time. I am not the only one - very doable.

 

13 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

This truly is not meant as 'Battlefront bashing' -- I fully recognize I haven't been part of this community nearly as long as many of you, but I own all the CMx2 games and have poured a lot of hours into each of them, and don't regret that in the slightest.

Good - me too. Awesome game.

13 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

Still (and I know the phrase gets thrown around a lot) this really does seem game-breaking to me.  I can't see the point of spending hours carefully plotting out tactics if your squads can just move about of their own accord, making the stupidest of decisions and getting annihilated in the process. If there really is no work around for this, then I guess it's back to the shelf for CMx2, and will check back in 6 months to see if BF has bothered to sort any of this out.

Hummm I'll refrain from saying much here but there is something you can do right now - the pause command. If you put your defenders on pause the will stay put - sometimes even when shaken. For your attackers you can put a pause command on their final way point to make sure the stay and fight. There is a downside - OK two:

1) The AI is not doing this work around so it works best vs human opponents.

2) Also, if you men are paused they will not withdraw on their own until they are really messed up.

I know a lot of people are very bent out of shape over this but we should all keep in mind that the TacAI is *supposed* to act on its own and try to preserve the lives of your men. I know people feel the balance was thrown off in v4 - and I agree. However, I feel that this is another one of those times when expectations need to be set / reset / hammered home :) . These pixel soldiers are *not* meant to be supermen. They are *not* mean to make perfect decisions at all times. They *cannot* read you mind and act accordingly. So, once we all get this patch remember that. Remember that even before v4 soldiers skipped town and sometimes ended up dead because of it. And the will again after the patch. That desire for self preservation was always in the programming and it is not going away.

 

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10 hours ago, IanL said:

That is easy peasy as long as you USE THE ALL IN ONE INSTALLERS. If you still have the all in one installers from previous builds of the games you own you can don't even have to re-download them. If you don't still have them, you can download them again.

The only all-in-one installer I can locate is the "CM Normandy 4.00 Full" (4.3GB). Where can I find the all-in-one for v.3? I appreciate your help but, especially when it comes to CM Normandy, I throw up my hands in despair over the many multiple modules and engine upgrades and packs and wonder how I ever got the game to run on my PC in the first place.

 

10 hours ago, IanL said:

Hummm I'll refrain from saying much here but there is something you can do right now - the pause command.

OK thank you for this -- this is a clever work around that I will try out.

 

10 hours ago, IanL said:

I know a lot of people are very bent out of shape over this but we should all keep in mind that the TacAI is *supposed* to act on its own and try to preserve the lives of your men. I know people feel the balance was thrown off in v4 - and I agree. However, I feel that this is another one of those times when expectations need to be set / reset / hammered home :) . These pixel soldiers are *not* meant to be supermen. They are *not* mean to make perfect decisions at all times. They *cannot* read you mind and act accordingly. So, once we all get this patch remember that. Remember that even before v4 soldiers skipped town and sometimes ended up dead because of it. And the will again after the patch. That desire for self preservation was always in the programming and it is not going away.

I completely agree with you that the pixeltruppen should not be supermen and should not make perfect decisions. The problem is the 'autonomy' as exercised by the truppen, esp. in v.400, just stretches beyond credibility. It's one thing to run into an ambush out of recklessness. It's quite another to choose to run headlong into enemy fire, which is what I saw in Abbaye d'Authie and caused me to put things aside -- a squad in a good position, putting good fire on the enemy, which then decides of its own accord to run *out* of cover and into a wall of bullets from *known* enemy positions. Willing suspension of disbelief terminated.

I was under the impression from reading other posts that the problematic 4.00 infantry behavior mostly pertained to troops under HE bombardment. What I saw was my troops 'exercising autonomy' simply during an exchange of fire. And they weren't pinned or panicked. They were in the advantageous position, and decided to give it up in favor of a completely disadvantageous position, leading to heavy casualties.

 

Anyway, I appreciate the responses from everyone who has weighed in here -- and that the comments have been admirably civil all around.

 

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28 minutes ago, sandman2575 said:

Anyway, I appreciate the responses from everyone who has weighed in here -- and that the comments have been admirably civil all around.

whoa...we can't have that.  This is supposed to be a forum for grumbly old grognards. (insert appropriate insult here).

I had a similar experience with another CMBN scenario.  Enemy set up nicely behind a hedgerow decides to try and sneak instead into a shell hole on my side of the hedgerow.  It is frustrating when the behavior displays itself, but it isn't totally consistent.  Was playing a bit of "a muddy affair" in CMFB last night and the freakin AI was holding out and kicking my butt.

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10 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

The only all-in-one installer I can locate is the "CM Normandy 4.00 Full" (4.3GB). Where can I find the all-in-one for v.3? I appreciate your help but, especially when it comes to CM Normandy, I throw up my hands in despair over the many multiple modules and engine upgrades and packs and wonder how I ever got the game to run on my PC in the first place.

Oh yuck. I just went to the store to find it and I forgot how painful that can be. I usually buy something, download it and save it with the keys so I never have to go in there again to find stuff. Here is what I did: I logged into the store and looked at the My Account page. On that page there is a list of purchases each with an arrow and "View" I looked at each one until I found one named this: CM Normandy - v3.0 UPGRADE  with the SKU of CBNU-3P-DW. That, for me, linked to the full installer for CMBN 3.11. That leads to the next challenge - downloading the right thing. The download link leads to a share file service and you have to select all the files on that screen - use the select all button and then press the download button to get them all.

But there is a patch too after that: http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2306&Itemid=518

Yeah its bad but way better than trying to piece everything together on little bit at a time in the right order without missing a step. I thought there was an easier way to get a full install of version but I cannot find it.

10 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

Anyway, I appreciate the responses from everyone who has weighed in here -- and that the comments have been admirably civil all around.

You reap what you sew. Sadly I usually end up saying that to people who are being jerks and getting upset when they get a harsh response. It is refreshing to say it to someone being reasonable who is looking for advice and actual wants to hear it. :D

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Thank you for taking the time to explain the installer issues, Ian. Especially with Battle for Normandy, it's a bit of a nightmare. I think I'm just going to stick with v.4.00 for now and try work-arounds like using the pause command that you suggested. Though I do hope some patch for the infantry behavior will arrive sooner rather than later.

 

21 hours ago, sburke said:

whoa...we can't have that.  This is supposed to be a forum for grumbly old grognards. (insert appropriate insult here).

Doubtful anyone's going to revoke our grumbly grognard status around here. If you play CMx2, you are by definition a gumbly old grognard.  ;)

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On 1/3/2018 at 3:36 AM, sburke said:

Was playing a bit of "a muddy affair" in CMFB last night and the freakin AI was holding out and kicking my butt.

I played the same mission yesterday, and while I agree it's a tough nut to crack, I saw plenty of cases where the AI ran into the streets to get cut to pieces. Somehow it's never as painful when it happens to the enemy as to my own guys :)

I don't think they will ever fix this behaviour 100 pct, but I feel there's still room for improvement. A basic check to not let troops run towards known threats (contacts) might go a long way. And if there's no escape route without enemy contacts, then to stay.

Staying put when under fire in a building might not guarantee survival, but it often seems the more "believable" choice. At least as I see it.

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On 01/03/2018 at 8:28 PM, IanL said:

Oh yuck. I just went to the store to find it and I forgot how painful that can be. I usually buy something, download it and save it with the keys so I never have to go in there again to find stuff. Here is what I did: I logged into the store and looked at the My Account page. On that page there is a list of purchases each with an arrow and "View" I looked at each one until I found one named this: CM Normandy - v3.0 UPGRADE  with the SKU of CBNU-3P-DW. That, for me, linked to the full installer for CMBN 3.11. That leads to the next challenge - downloading the right thing. The download link leads to a share file service and you have to select all the files on that screen - use the select all button and then press the download button to get them all.

But there is a patch too after that: http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2306&Itemid=518

Yeah its bad but way better than trying to piece everything together on little bit at a time in the right order without missing a step. I thought there was an easier way to get a full install of version but I cannot find it.

Just tried this and it was pretty easy. I already had a copy of all CMBN 3.11 files so I didn't have to re-download. 

I installed this to a directory which I named "...Normandy 3.12" so I knew exactly where it would be. I then downloaded the patch (which is 3.12). Curiously, it didn't give me an option of where to install the patch when I ran the .exe file, so I stopped the install. After some brief mucking around it seemed to be dropping it into "...Normandy 3.12". 

All seems good. 

Cheers Ian 

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I had a platoon of 101st clear out a trench line without taking any casualties. After a few overhead bursts of MG fire and what looked like a stray rifle grenade, squad after squad lost their cool and decided to leave the trench. They sprinted in various directions and hid in small bushes. I've also had airborne retreat from trench systems while a single mortar bombarded them with a hopelessly large spread. Both of these scenarios resulted in injury or death of either the troops or the those they were supposed to be covering.

I hope they patch it, eventually. I guess I can imagine people going absolutely mad in mortal danger. It's a minor issue and I love the excellent new tracers (a pet peeve of mine), in 4.0.

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5 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

After a few overhead bursts of MG fire and what looked like a stray rifle grenade, squad after squad lost their cool and decided to leave the trench. They sprinted in various directions and hid in small bushes.

 

5 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

I've also had airborne retreat from trench systems while a single mortar bombarded them with a hopelessly large spread.

 

5 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

It's a minor issue

 

:huh:

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That's indeed an annoying issue when it happens. The squad AI really should be less likely to run away, and far more likely to stay put and cower for long periods, especially if in cover. Can the AI not detect when it's in cover, like if it's in an action spot with a trench or foxhole? If there was a huge battle going on all around me, with deafening explosions and tanks rolling at me, I would not want to stick my head up AT ALL, much less get up and run around. I would be trembling and pissing myself at the bottom of my hole.

I posted this in another thread but if they wanted to make the AI better at avoiding HE fire, they should make the AI duck and cower BEFORE the artillery shells start landing around them, not just run away when shells start hitting. Arty shells are loud and sound like a freight train flying through the air. Sometimes you can even see them, like little black sausages flying overhead, and hear the report of the guns firing in the distance. After some experience, you can tell if rounds are gonna hit near you or not, and you can tell the difference between incoming and outgoing. If troops are walking along a road, hear the *thump thump thump* of guns in the distance, and then hear the shells ripping through the atmosphere toward them, chances are they will all freak out and scramble for the nearest ditch before the rounds start landing. Mortars can be really quiet though and are very dangerous because of that.

The weird thing though is that in CM, troops already seem to know when artillery is gonna hit nearby, because you can hear them yell about it. They will shout "Achtung, artillerie!" and whatnot as soon as off-map artillery starts falling into the game world. Why can't they make the troops duck down and cower then? If they're moving, and hear shells coming in, they should cancel your orders and cower. That would fix the whole issue right there.

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